User talk:Tjoneslo

From Traveller Wiki - Science-Fiction Adventure in the Far future
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Archive: The early years
User talk:Tjoneslo/archive-2006-2013
User talk:Tjoneslo/archive-2014
Archive: The Maksim Era
User talk:Tjoneslo/archive-2015
User talk:Tjoneslo/archive-2016
User talk:Tjoneslo/archive-2017
User talk:Tjoneslo/archive-2018
User talk:Tjoneslo/archive-2019

Welcome to my talk page. I you would like to leave me a message, please use the Add topic button in the menu above.

My TodoList: User:Tjoneslo/todo


"Show/Hide" Functionality (2020)[edit]

Since the interface update on the wiki, the "show/hide" functionality on some page entries has apparently been disabled. For Example, see: Margaret Yetrina Tukera. Under "History & Background (Dossier)" there are the show/hide text headings "Rebellion Era (Click Show to reveal)" and "Virus/Collapse (Click Show to reveal)", but the toggle to actually show/reveal the underlying hidden text is missing. --WHULorigan (talk) 12:56, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

That was a custom set of JavaScript code I had to delete because it was out of date and breaking other things. I need to find a replacement and put it back in. Tjoneslo (talk) 14:39, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Let me know the new syntax when you do; there are several pages I would like to fix. --WHULorigan (talk) 15:21, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
I have restored the previous functionality and it should just now work as before. You may need to do a page reload to pick up the restored JavaScript. Tjoneslo (talk) 12:44, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks. Seems to be working fine. --WHULorigan (talk) 14:05, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Corridor Main[edit]

The Corridor Main (a main in the Corridor Sector) is being redirected to Corridor Run (SR), a trace in the Solomani Rim Sector. Can this/Should this be undone?

Related to that - The corridor main appears to have various subsections: A Trace from Mowanda to Wal-ta-ka including Atsah; a cluster with Drayne and Kaasu; the Depot Cluster; and a longer trace along the border. Any suggestions on whether these should be dealt with as a single item or as a series of smaller groups? BackworldTraveller (talk) 08:29, 7 May 2020 (EDT) n.b. The Corridor Sector Data page has no reference to a Corridor Main. BackworldTraveller (talk) 08:52, 7 May 2020 (EDT)

The problem is there isn't a Main (a collection of 50+ stars connected by a jump-1) in Corridor. Sashrakusha subsector holds part of the Vilani Main. but the rest are small traces and clusters. There was a project to name each of these across the whole of the Imperium. I would have to look through my references to see if Corridor sector was ever completed. So from that point of view, the current setup is correct. If you'd like to name and catalog the different clusters in Corridor, please feel free. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:55, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
The Corridor Main (or Corridor Run) is not an astrographic feature with Corridor Sector. There are some circumstances in clusters/mains that take a very reasonable name that could a might be misleading in their locations within Charted Space. Ssteve (talk) 15:22, 9 May 2020 (EDT)
I think I've got rid of all the 'Corridor Main' references in the top 8 subsectors and replaced them with references to associated clusters, traces, etc. BackworldTraveller (talk) 14:30, 14 May 2020 (EDT)

Use of 'Coreward'[edit]

Another that springs to mind is the use of "coreward"; is that the direction toward the center of the Galaxy or the direction towards Core Sector? Its all in the context and in the mind of the reader. Ssteve (talk) 15:22, 9 May 2020 (EDT)

For 'Astrographic' sections, 'Coreward' I've used refers to the Galaxy. For polities, cultures, etc it can point to the centre of the Imperium, the centre of the Vargr Extents etc depending on the context as you suggest. From Million Subsector, Coreward can be towards the Galactic Centre, the Imperial Core (Trailing) or the Regency Core (Spinward). Hopefully we have thoughtful readers? BackworldTraveller (talk) 14:30, 14 May 2020 (EDT)

Other Corridor Issues[edit]

The main Corridor page appears to have lumped the entire Imperial presence in the sector into the Lancian Cultural Region. This then seems to filter down into the subsector descriptions too. The Lancian Cultural Region should only include some of those worlds on the Coreward side of the great rift. The actual corridor is just Imperial. BackworldTraveller (talk) 08:52, 7 May 2020 (EDT)

If you want to take on the job of fixing that it would be appreciated. I agree with your assessment. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:57, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
No, wait. The problem of identifying the Third Imperium in the corridor sector as Lancian is a bug in the code that generates those summaries. I may have fixed it since then, but I'll take another look through the code. The text of the summary lives in a "<page>/summary" article so a bot can automatically update it. I'm currently waiting for one last set of updates to the Two Thousand worlds to run the update process again. I used to ask people not to update the the summary pages because the upload bot would overwrite the changes, But the process is run so infrequently these days, a manual update to correct issues isn't a bad idea. Tjoneslo (talk) 21:04, 7 May 2020 (EDT)
If this is going to go when you run the automated script then this doesn't seem a great option given the number of worlds affected. BackworldTraveller (talk) 17:47, 14 May 2020 (EDT)

Gazelle-Class Close Escorts[edit]

The Gazelle class has, yet again, had a duplicate page created (this time for the T5 version) this deliberate? BackworldTraveller (talk) 10:02, 8 May 2020 (EDT)

There are two pages: Gazelle-Class Close Escorts is an article about a publication about the Gazelle, and Gazelle class Close Escort is an article about the Gazelle ship in the library. Yes, they are close in name, but cover very different things. Is there another article? Tjoneslo (talk) 18:52, 8 May 2020 (EDT)
That is true. Issue is a red-herring BackworldTraveller (talk) 01:06, 9 May 2020 (EDT)


I've updated Gabrael details and the script on line 1 no longer returns any results...I didn't touch that. Any ideas? I admit I changed two /data characters, but that did not have an immediate disastrous effect, nor has it had an immediate restorative effect when undone. BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:03, 8 May 2020 (EDT)

You have uncovered a long-time bug in the Template:StellarData, which stores the data into the underlying cargo table. This has been broken since 2016. I've fixed the problem and regenerating the data. This should take about an hour or so. I'll check again later tonight to verify this has been fixed. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:29, 8 May 2020 (EDT)

Bug in CenturyBox[edit]

This is assigning "nd" to "12" instead of "th". I suspect the same for 11 and 13. i.e. CenturyBox|11 --> 12nd. BackworldTraveller (talk) 03:43, 10 May 2020 (EDT)

Thanks for pointing this out. This has been fixed. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:09, 10 May 2020 (EDT)

Copyright Question[edit]

Is there any copyright agreement in place to use the animals picture from the Mongoose book (p104)? BackworldTraveller (talk) 13:00, 10 May 2020 (EDT)

Yes and no. Maksim had a discussion with Matt (at Mongoose) about using the Mongoose material in the wiki. The details in are on Copyright page. The concern from myself and other wiki stewards was we don't have a way of enforcing the limitations. So please use discretion. If you upload pictures, please make sure to include the {{Ludography cite...}} in the description so we can find the pictures from the books. Tjoneslo (talk) 15:17, 10 May 2020 (EDT)

Citing "High Guard" from Mongoose[edit]

What is the correct form of such a citation I used (which didn't work) {{Page cite|High Guard|Version=Mongoose Traveller|Page=216-224}} BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:15, 11 May 2020 (EDT)

All of the Mongoose 2nd edition books should be cited as "version=New Traveller". All of the Mongoose 1st edition books are "version=Mongoose Traveller". This also applies to the Ludography cite. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:33, 11 May 2020 (EDT)

Vargr States in Million Sector pre-420[edit]

Looking at the dot-maps provided in Mongoose's Deneb Sector book, there were a series of Vargr states in Million sector between 100 and 420...none named. I was looking to update the subsector history.

  • 100: Unekh+Talon+Akkip+Fel+Ikhaba+Oluk Dzas+Aerfor
  • 210: (a) Unekh+Talon+Fosfog and (b) Fel+Nurara+Hammand+Arelshanu+Oluk Dzas+Aerfor
  • 330: Fosfog+495-524+Metare
  • 420: Fosfog+495-524+Metare+Fel

There seem to be raids but no stable multi-world states in the civil war period.There is then a long hiatus until Augurgh forms his alliance sometime in the late 1090's at the earliest until its end in 1143.

How does the Wiki Editorial Team suggest that this be described? Pick a random Aekhu name for the 1st entity; split it into two - one getting a new name for the 2nd; with the Fosfog part struggling on (new name now Talon has gone?) for the 330-420 periods?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 13:52, 11 May 2020 (EDT)

Send a note to User:Rje, the author of that book, and see if he has a suggestion. Otherwise your idea sounds fine. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:35, 11 May 2020 (EDT)

I've done something wrong!![edit]

The Aasish Cluster and the Ian-Irasumshu Star Group don't seem to be displaying the worlds tagged with Category: XXX worlds entries, despite the category pages existing. Any ideas? BackworldTraveller (talk) 14:34, 14 May 2020 (EDT) Ditto Naadi Cluster BackworldTraveller (talk) 14:36, 14 May 2020 (EDT)

You have not done anything wrong. The system has several internal caches which don't always update as quickly as you might like. In the menu at the top of the page, under "more" there should be an option "Purge Cache". When you are on the page, select this option. It will clear the cached (empty) results and show you the list of worlds. If you can't find that option let me know and I'll walk you through the process of finishing the registration to enable it. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:14, 14 May 2020 (EDT)
Brilliant - Thanks BackworldTraveller (talk) 17:11, 14 May 2020 (EDT)


The Template:WorldHydro doesn't take an Atmosphere parameter and thus doesn't differentiate between water oceans on atmospheres 1-A and fluid oceans on atmospheres B and C. Can this be amended? Default to water if no atmosphere is supplied? BackworldTraveller (talk) 03:38, 15 May 2020 (EDT)

Mainworld Designation[edit]

These templates all assume that the world being described is a Mainworld. Could "Mainworld" be made a default with a parameter that allows for the fact that a secondary world is being described? BackworldTraveller (talk) 14:53, 25 August 2020 (EDT)

Well yes, the templates assume the world being described is the main world. But most of them don't explicitly mention the term "mainworld", and the "name" parameter doesn't have to be the main world name. Can you point me at where "world=secondary" as a parameter might be used? Tjoneslo (talk) 16:12, 25 August 2020 (EDT)
See Campaign:BTC/Hammand (world) and the description of Xing. BackworldTraveller (talk) 16:33, 25 August 2020 (EDT)
Actually changing "Mainworld" to "World" would have the desired effect! BackworldTraveller (talk) 16:35, 25 August 2020 (EDT)
I was going to say, at least for the page, those headers are in your page and you can edit them directly there. Template:UWP Explain I will update as well to just "world". Tjoneslo (talk) 16:42, 25 August 2020 (EDT)
Yep - Just seen that - Stupid of me BackworldTraveller (talk) 17:10, 25 August 2020 (EDT)


The WorldAtmo template has no Temperature parameter and thus makes statements about the required level of protective equipment that may be untrue for worlds noted as colder or warmer than normal. Can this be amended? BackworldTraveller (talk) 03:40, 15 May 2020 (EDT)

The Template:WorldAtmo simply copies the text from the Atmosphere/summary, specifically the Summary Synopsis Paragraph cell from the table. The same with the Template:WorldHydro. These were part of a project to create a single world description paragraph from the extended UWP for the world articles. The Trade codes summary are another part of this as well. But the project is still incomplete. The challenge with the temperature is most of the worlds don't have an orbital location noted in their UWP data, and are simply assumed to be in the Habitable Zone. So worlds not in the habitable zone and having temperature extremes limit habitability (despite other factors) are an exception and need to be noted by the article author, rather than a automated generator. But finishing off the whole paragraph from UWP is on my to-do list, along with many other projects. Tjoneslo (talk) 10:28, 15 May 2020 (EDT)


For Size=8, could a comment noting that "Vessels with only 1G of thrust should check with local starport authorities before attempting to land using emergency power"?
For size 9+, could a comment noting that "Vessels with only 1G of thrust should not make surface landings without ensuring that there is a local means of providing additional take-off thrust"? BackworldTraveller (talk) 04:22, 15 May 2020 (EDT)

These comments are all stored Planetary Size/summary page. Update the summary field to have these comments appear. Tjoneslo (talk) 14:09, 15 May 2020 (EDT)
Done BackworldTraveller (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2020 (EDT)


Is COTI admitting members? It said (3 days ago) that I should wait for a mail, and I'm still waiting. BackworldTraveller (talk) 06:46, 15 May 2020 (EDT)

It should be. I just fixed this last weekend. If you haven't gotten an email it means you either tried to use one of the forbidden ones, or the email got eaten by a spam filter. If you log back into the site, go to the control panel, and try and reset your email address it will send you another confirmation email. If that doesn't work, email me Special:EmailUser/Tjoneslo and I'll see if I can figure it out from there. Tjoneslo (talk) 14:07, 15 May 2020 (EDT)

Kishkii's route[edit]

To arrive at Trin in 1139, and to have started in the Ziru Sirka, Kishkii must have passed through Corridor.

Has any consensus been reached whether it came alone (in which case it would be able to proceed at J4) or accompanied (when it will get slowed to J3 or J2...J1 vessels can't cross the gaps between clusters on-route)? At J2, pre abandonment it can't have crossed from Atsah-->Spinward without crossing at least one system with a naval base, but the abandonment makes a hole. The implication would be that if it were a fleet it would have been seen (but not necessarily understood) at Imlaar, Giikusu or Lan-chou by the RQS in mid 1138. After that it is inside the "Safe" and can wilderness refuel the whole way to Trin without touching a base until Inkekush or Saguenay. If it were jump-4, it could leapfrog the frontier zone entirely from Dunmag to Piram and would never have been seen. It does mean that it would/could have passed through Antra later though. Any suggestions? BackworldTraveller (talk) 09:09, 15 May 2020 (EDT)

It was probably a combination of things. There was undoubtedly several vampire fleets making their way through the gap between the Windhorn Rift and the Great Rift in the 1135-1140 time frame. While the TNE books are thin on information, the Vargr must have been mounting some effort to fight back. First because they thought the ships were Imperial ones attempting to take back the territory they lost, then later simply to stop the invasion / death toll. I think we can assume the Vampire in fleets and individuals were all the way to the Regency border, but usually damaged by the time they got there.
My thought would be start closer to the Great Rift outside the Regency border, like Khishuda => Erita => Torm => Rolvaag => Verd => Bishop => Sipedon => Briaxis => Furens => Trin (34 parsecs — 9 jumps). No high population worlds, only one scout base. All gas giant refueling, and really difficult to catch moving at that pace. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:54, 15 May 2020 (EDT)
Another thought ocurrs to me as well. The Kishkii may not have had to cross the whole distance. It may have been one of the ships in the Corridor Depot or one of the other naval bases. The Vargr or Human crew were attempting to refurbish / rearm the ship when the virus came a took it over. Then it heads to Trin from there. Tjoneslo (talk) 17:57, 15 May 2020 (EDT)
It is stated that Kishkii's route crossed 4 sectors...Vland, Corridor, Deneb, Spinward Marches are implied. There is quite detailed info about initial Virus spread in Khouth subsector (1137-1140+) and Million (1143ish), Antra (1138 for one Suicider accident, then later) and Atsah (starting 1139 except Kishkii). After that it goes very vague...unsurprisingly. I've two parties that are operating in 1138 in Antra and million respectively...and I'm trying to pull the details out of ???. Also the Red Pelts are noted as crossing the post virus wilds yet they actually arrive before Virus really strikes (which is interesting). Notes imply that by the mid-late-1140s were generating about 5-6 incursions on the frontier per week (3/week for 61st Fleet is stated) or about 250-300 per year. This can be sustained for a long time even without building a thing because of the huge amounts of merchant traffic in circulation before the war. What is astonishing/saddening is the pathetic and half-hearted response of the Regency in the first 5 years or so. The Mikesh/Khouth pair of losses alone makes Trin look trivial. BackworldTraveller (talk) 18:20, 15 May 2020 (EDT)

Mistake in Page Title[edit]

I have accidentally added a hyphen in the page ""Vice-Admiral" which should be titled "Vice Admiral". Can the is be corrected please? BackworldTraveller (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (EDT)

Fixing the page title requires moving the page. Under the "More" option at the top of the page select "Move". This will give you the option of entering the new page title. This is the preferred method of fixing page titles as it keeps the page history, the list of changes, to the page, with the page for everyone to view. Tjoneslo (talk) 17:24, 18 May 2020 (EDT)
OK - Got the process sorted! BackworldTraveller (talk) 02:15, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Violante (world)[edit]

{{StellarDataQuery|name= {{World|Violante|Spinward Marches|Aramis|2708}} }} yields 'no results' - and presumably has done so for some time. Best way of debugging? BackworldTraveller (talk) 06:56, 21 May 2020 (EDT)

You remember the problem above with the StellarData template. This is an effect of that. A quick use of the "Purge Cache" resolved the problem. If you encounter another one, try that, and if it doesn't work, try editing / saving the data page ("World Name (world)/data") and trying the purge again. If neither of those works, let me know. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:17, 21 May 2020 (EDT)
Thanks BackworldTraveller (talk) 02:15, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Prison Camp and Prison World[edit]

Should these pages be merged? BackworldTraveller (talk) 08:00, 21 May 2020 (EDT)

Yes, they should be. Since Prison Camp is the empty one, redirect that to the Prison World. Though neither is quite correct. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:18, 21 May 2020 (EDT)
Done the redirect. Not sure on the "Correct" definition BackworldTraveller (talk) 02:15, 22 May 2020 (EDT)

Ministry of Justice[edit]

The MoJ is listed in the Imperial Bureaucracy page as

A2. Ministry of Justice (MOJ): Exercises authority over violations of Imperial law.

  • Imperial Inquisitorial Branch
  • Imperial Penal System
  • Justice Special Branch (JSB)
  • Sector Court Branches
  • Supreme Court of the Third Imperium

However, looking through the details of the system in Nobles and Agent books, I can see no reference to many of these.

Imperial Inquisitorial Branch[edit]

This is presumably the network of agents appointed by the MoJ sector courts. This has been detailed as "Inquisitorial agents" in the Ministry of Justice entry. A logical deduction from the information available.

Imperial Penal System[edit]

This is described as the network of Imperial Exile Worlds, Prison Worlds and Prisons that the Imperium controls. Again a logical extension of data given elsewhere

Justice Special Branch[edit]

As this is red-linked, whoever set this up intended to detail whatever this is. How does this differ from the Imperial Inquisitorial Branch? I'm not sure what the "High Passage 1" article wrote up. Does anyone have a copy that could be summarised?

Sector Court Branches[edit]

These are explained in Nobles and are fairly clear.

Supreme Court of the Third Imperium[edit]

It is explicitly stated that there is no court of appeal. This, therefore, cannot exist as an appellate court. And the Imperial High Court is part of the Criminal Justice System. Isn't this superfluous?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 06:18, 26 May 2020 (EDT)

These are questions that need to be poised to the wider community (CotI, TML, Facebook), as I don't have quick or easy answers. In reading through the page history it seems Maksim was simply adding things that "made sense" based upon the different models of governments, without having finished the plan of how they actually relate to either the canon or each other. For the Supreme Court, the Emperor serves as the final authority for all matters of the Imperium. There is at least one case of a Noble being accuse of a high crime having the emperor hear the case. The noble got life in prison and promptly escaped. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:51, 26 May 2020 (EDT)
Having the venue of the trial changed isn't appeals. And Peers are entitled to different justice standards anyway. BackworldTraveller (talk) 02:02, 27 May 2020 (EDT)
I'm agreeing there isn't a "Supreme Court of the Imperium". Each world will have their own justice system with no appeal beyond that. If you are a peer, or have one in your debt, you can appeal there, outside of the normal course of justice, which, in theory, goes all the way to the Emperor. But any of the peers can simply render judgement. Rule of Men, not Laws. Precedence is important but not the final word. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:59, 27 May 2020 (EDT)

Disclaimer template required?[edit]

I have added Black Death and Scarlet fever entries. Do we need a disclaimer on the pages to indicate that we are not a medical reference site? If so, can we set up an appropriate template? BackworldTraveller (talk) 02:00, 27 May 2020 (EDT)

I read through the two articles. The general policy has been if you are borrowing from real world articles (like these), include a wikipedia template under the references header: {{wikipedia|Yersinia pestis}} and {{wikipedia|Scarlet fever}} respectively. The other thing to keep in mind is this should be a game reference. So a lot of details isn't always needed. I've added the wikipedia templates. I also have a strong preference for paragraphs over lists, but that's purely a personal preference. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:10, 27 May 2020 (EDT)

Core Rules cite[edit]

The cite of "Core Rules" with version "Mongoose Traveller" seems to reference the German translation. Is this deliberate? BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:18, 29 May 2020 (EDT)

They were both wrong. The Mongoose Traveller book should be "Core Rulebook", and the article has been updated. The New Traveller book is "Core Rule Book", and probably should be "Core Rulebook". The Germain translation has been updated to "Grundregelwerk". Tjoneslo (talk) 19:13, 29 May 2020 (EDT)

Removal of rank chart from Rank descriptions[edit]

Will you be moving this table in all the entries? BackworldTraveller (talk) 11:03, 30 May 2020 (EDT)

Having a template for the chart of ranks is pretty much what the Wiki templates were designed for. So every article will have the same chart and all the links are updated correctly. So Yes, I really want to add that chart to each of the articles, including the Imperial Navy one.
Do you have suggestions for improvement? Should I put it back where it was before? I was going to replace the Sunburst with the Imperial Navy insignia, and make the title yellow, to match the other Infoboxes, is that a good idea? Suggestions are welcomed and encouraged. Tjoneslo (talk) 14:17, 30 May 2020 (EDT)

Comparative Ranks[edit]

The ranks O1..Ox for each service are (per Megatraveller) seriously out of kilter above O8.

The Subsector leader of the IN is Fleet Admiral (O8 - Baronet) with the sector equivalent being (O9 - Baron) and the imperium wide leader being (O10 - Duke)

The equivalent for the IM is (reasonably) Subsector Marshal (O8 - Knight) and imperium wide at Marshal of the Corps at (O9-Viscount)

The equivalent for the Army is Subsector Marshal (O11 - Baron); Sector Grand Marshal (O12 - Baron) and Marshal of the Unified Armies (O12+ - Count)

I suspect that this is why Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral were introduced...but I have no idea of the actuality.

Senior Flag Officer (Branch) - O8 Flag Officer (Sector) (Branch) - O9

How do you want these to get shown in the hierarchy? (if at all)

BackworldTraveller (talk) 11:50, 30 May 2020 (EDT)

See Talk:Imperial Navy, last entry. There are some canon references to the Rear and Vice Admirals which are never expanded on in the rules. Quoting from the post by User:WHULorigan:
The Imperial Navy is large enough (and Imperium-wide) to justify the upper level Flag Ranks. The Fleet Ranks ("Rear-", "Vice-", and "Fleet-") for actual fighting-fleet commands and Admiralty-Staff appointments, and the "Sector-" and "Grand-" Ranks for the political-level appointments. It also puts the Navy on a par with the Army which has the O11 "Field Marshal" Rank.
The Grand Fleet book three things to this list, two of which you expand on above.
  1. It adds Staff Admiral, also know as the Senior Flag Officer(Branch) who is equal in rank to a Sector admiral - O9 in the MT ranking system. These are the Admirals in charge of the other branches of the sector level fleet.
  2. It adds Subsector Admiral without giving it a rank
  3. It notes, like you do, there are two kinds of Admirals (Fleet, Subsector) are fighting admirals, and Sector and Grand Admirals are political appointments.
My thought on this would be: Let's keep the table as the MT rules have it (O8 - Fleet, O9 - Sector, O10 - Grand). Update the text of the articles to note the O8 Fleet admirals are the Fighting admirals and there is a recognized hierarchy within the sector fleets, and the Fleet admirals are sometimes given different titles to distinguish them: In order they are: Fleet Admiral, Rear Admiral, and Vice admiral.
The Sector Admiralty (O9) has a similar split of the Staff Admirals (Senior Flag Officer) and Sector Admiral.
The question then becomes, which comes first: The Naval Promotion or the investiture with noble rank? Thoughts?
- Tjoneslo (talk) 14:11, 30 May 2020 (EDT)
The Nobles book is clear. Any Noble candidate is likely to get the role. If a non-noble is considered in any case, then that non-noble get the Honour and Rank. I'll note that in the descriptions.
The other option would be to note (possibly in the rank-table) that (in ascending order): Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, and "Admiral" are all "sub-ranks" of the rank "Fleet Admiral":
Imperial Navy Flag Ranks
O10 » Grand Admiral
O9 » Sector Admiral
O8c » Fleet Admiral (Admiral)
O8b » Fleet Admiral (Vice Admiral)
O8a » Fleet Admiral (Rear Admiral)
O7 » Commodore
I had actually considered this option when I first modified the rank table. One consideration is that with an organization the size of the Imperial Navy, would O10 be sufficiently high for the highest level rank? (recall, that the Imperial Navy has about 320 numbered fleets (one per subesctor) (IIRC). The United States Navy currently has a total of 7 Numbered Fleets (3-star rank), which are assigned to regional/geographic fleet commands as necessary (3 or 4-star rank)).
It would be a shame to lose those obscure but canonical rank distinctions in the massive volume of Traveller lore, since they are only noted in a few TNS briefs. Agent of the Imperium (usiing T5-scale) simply notes that O7-Admiral (directly above O6-Captain and O6.5-Commodore) has "additional" higher rank grades (plural). It could be that "Rear-", "Vice-", and "(unmodified)-Admiral" are the actual rank-names, but the descriptor "Fleet-" or "Subsector-" or "Staff-" is added to the term "Admiral" as a general job descriptor (i.e. all Rear-, Vice-, etc. Admirals are either Fleet (or Subsector) Admirals or Staff Admirals based on their job-appointment).
--WHULorigan (talk) 16:15, 30 May 2020 (EDT)
This makes a good kind of sense. I updated the table with the suggestion. The articles (Imperial Navy, and the rank article) need to be updated. Tjoneslo (talk) 08:52, 31 May 2020 (EDT)
Can we do the same thing for Marine Rank, Army (Senior) Rank, Army (GFC) Rank, Army (COACC) Rank, Army (Wet Navy) Rank and IISS Rank? BackworldTraveller (talk) 13:29, 31 May 2020 (EDT)
These have all been completed, and I renamed the Naval ranks template. Though I don't think the image for the Marines, or Army branches are correct. But those are easy to update when we have the correct ones. Tjoneslo (talk) 15:58, 31 May 2020 (EDT)
Remind me, again, why we do this? BackworldTraveller (talk) 18:41, 31 May 2020 (EDT)
Using templates? Any time I see a chunk of text that been copied into a number of articles I like to replace it with template, especially if I, or others, are updating the text across all the articles more than once. It's the reason templates exist. Tjoneslo (talk) 05:53, 1 June 2020 (EDT)

IA rank templates not displaying[edit]

The GFC ranks have no text visible!!BackworldTraveller (talk) 16:27, 31 May 2020 (EDT)

I saw this note before and looked through all the uses of the template. I'm not understanding about what is missing or from where. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:40, 2 June 2020 (EDT)
Imperial Army Close Orbit and Airspace Control Command ranks
Imperial Army Logo.jpeg
Commissioned Officers
O8 » Air Marshal (various grades)
O7 » Air Commodore
O6 » Group Leader
O5 » Wing Leader (Staff Colonel)
O4 » Staff Major
O3 » Squadron Leader (Staff Captain)
O2 » Flying Officer
O1 » Pilot Officer
O0 » Officer Cadet (Flight Cadet)
Enlisted Ranks
E9 » Flight Sergeant Major
E8 » Master Flight Sergeant
E7 » Senior Flight Sergeant
E6 » Leading Flight Sergeant
E5 » Flight Sergeant
E4 » Crew Chief
E3 » Senior Airhand
E2 » Leading Airhand
E1 » Airhand
E0 » Airhand Recruit
Note the black headers with black text. Same for GFC and NFC. BackworldTraveller (talk) 07:56, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
I see a black bar with white text. So which OS/browser, and Wiki skin are you using? Tjoneslo (talk) 09:28, 3 June 2020 (EDT)
I'm using Microsoft Edge as my browser: Default skin for that at a guessBackworldTraveller (talk) 05:55, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
Edge is not my usual browser, but I just installed the latest version. I tweaked the template color, Does this look any better? Tjoneslo (talk) 07:02, 4 June 2020 (EDT)
Resolved, Thanks BackworldTraveller (talk) 07:15, 4 June 2020 (EDT)

cite of secret of the ancients[edit]

{{Page cite|name=Secret of the Ancients|version=Mongoose Traveller|page=183}}
You get:

↑ Gareth Hanrahan. Secret of the Ancients (Mongoose Publishing, 2010), 183.Gareth Hanrahan. Secret of the Ancients (Mongoose Publishing, 2012), 183.

Not what I expected! BackworldTraveller (talk) 13:56, 2 June 2020 (EDT)

There are two editions of the book, 1st and 2nd. Use the parameter "edition=1st" or "edition=2nd" to select between them. Tjoneslo (talk) 15:58, 2 June 2020 (EDT)
Not sure I'm doing it right as adding |1st doesn't fix the issue...article is 40th Squadron. BackworldTraveller (talk) 17:47, 2 June 2020 (EDT)
Use the full text of "edition=2nd". I fixed the article for an example. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2020 (EDT)


Are there any traveller technologies for cyberware (glands, etc) that manufactures specific drugs (e.g. Combat Drug, stims, metabolic accelerator) for use by the person? I'd guess they would be possible but it is a matter of cost and tech level.

Ditto for Electromagnetic probe or NAS or inertial compass

I'm slowly going through the Cybernetics section of Fire, Fusion, & Steel. This does have an implantable NAS, inertial compass, and a radio that could be used as a sensor. The water in a (human) body tends to interfere with some EM scanners, and isn't big enough to be an antenna for some longer wavelength radio wave detection. It doesn't have a specific drug factory however. The other source of cybernetics, Mongoose Traveller: Cybernetics, may but I don't have the book to confirm. As a larger project I'm going through all of the equipment articles and reworking them. The final goal is to be able to collect them into a book. Tjoneslo (talk) 08:43, 6 June 2020 (EDT)


Followed your recommendation but I am not sure how often the water cooler gets visited. —¿philoserf? (talk) 11:45, 11 June 2020 (EDT)

I know I read through the wiki changes throughout the day, but only have time to make responses to queries during either the morning before work or in the evening after work assuming nothing else is going on. The advice I give to people posting to the forums is to wait 24-48 hours for a response. Tjoneslo (talk) 18:41, 11 June 2020 (EDT)

Page delete[edit]

I will be more economical next time I do some learning. If I’m good at it this will be my first and last page delete request.

Please remove all files on this result:

—¿philoserf? (talk) 09:44, 12 June 2020 (EDT)

Done. Tjoneslo (talk) 17:20, 12 June 2020 (EDT)

Psionic Strength[edit]

It seems that the page for this characteristic is not editable or creatable. I can't see that it has been deleted. Any suggestions? BackworldTraveller (talk) 09:56, 13 June 2020 (EDT)

This is a known problem. There are a few others. I need to fix these by updating the database. If you find any more, post them here. Tjoneslo (talk) 10:54, 13 June 2020 (EDT)
See Uneditable Pages List below

Trepida/Astrin Class of Grav Vehicles[edit]

I was looking at the details in the Regency Combat Vehicles Guide and comparing to the version of these vehicles in this Wiki. There seem to be significant discrepancies between statistics and the Wiki only has details for the Trepida (a.k.a. Trepida I).

Should I update the statistics using the RCVG booklet and add the remaining vehicles in the family?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 15:40, 14 June 2020 (EDT)

I know there are additional versions of these vehicles in GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces, Rebellion Sourcebook (p. 86/87), The T20 Against Gravity p.34/32. Plus the versions in the Sources template. So good luck reconciling the different versions. But, yes please add all the vehicles in the RCVG book. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:16, 14 June 2020 (EDT)

Synthetic Vs Android Vs Robot[edit]

The Andriod page appears to be historical.

The Synthetic page then describes much the same thing using the terminology from the Life Form Chart that is variously distributed.

Should these be merged, and if so, which title should be primary?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 04:46, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

According to the descriptions in the T5 Core book, both android and synthetic should be pointing at the Robot page. They are both artificial life forms which may or may not be sentient. There are a whole number of additional terms on that page all of which should point there. The scary thing is we may be re-inventing the Wikipedia notability requirements. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:54, 16 June 2020 (EDT)
OK - But
  1. the image is a Marc Miller original from T5 Starships - so it is Canon?
  2. the diagram shows some overlap between Robots and Synthetics but neither is a subset of the other.
  3. the Robot page is, itself a mess and makes reference to both Synthetics and Androids as being (sometimes) biological machines indistinguishable from people. It uses the term Android only in the sense of a male-pattern humanoid manufactured robot and states it isn't biological - which contradicts the Android entry itself.
  4. the referral tree is not consistent either!
The definition of Android ("a synthetic man, created from biological materials.") could technically include Geneered and Cloned Beings. And the Robot definition states that a Robot is a "Machine" which is etymologically "Mechanical" but possibly used to mean biological systems. All very blurred.
The Robot page mixes:
  1. The (muddy) class definition of Robot
  2. The classification of intelligence levels assigned to Robot
  3. Roles assumed by Robots
  4. Types of manufactured thing called Robot partly classified by role
  5. Manufacturers of types of Robot
  6. Goods called Robot

BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:04, 16 June 2020 (EDT) P.S. This is a distraction from what I was actually intending to look at which is a distraction from the thing before that. This wiki has a finite but unbounded list of rabbit holes!

Well, yes. Exactly. I'm working my way through the Goods articles. Which include fixing all the different kinds of articles like these. Computer, Cybertechnology, Genetic Engineering were the recent ones I worked on, including cleaning up the referral trees. One of the problems is T5 has some specific definitions vs the more generic definitions in the wider SF universe. So straighten this out to be consistent is going to be a chunk of work.
Short answer is I don't have a quick answer for you, just a list of 100+ articles which need this same kind of attention. Tjoneslo (talk) 13:16, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

Uneditable Pages List[edit]

Moved to Forum:Uneditable Pages. Tjoneslo (talk) 15:30, 3 July 2020 (EDT)


Could this be given a parameter to select the date for which the map is displayed. The Traveller map allows various values (0,990,1105[default],1120,1201,1248,etc) which can be used to show the changes over time. e.g. &milieu=M1201

BackworldTraveller (talk) 10:15, 17 June 2020 (EDT)

Yes, it could. I've added that to the list of updates to the template. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:30, 17 June 2020 (EDT)

Blue Darrian[edit]

Shouldn’t the page be deleted rather than just the content?

Per the talk page discussion, I left the page but deleted to content to keep the links to the original discussion on CotI. And I doubt anyone has looked at it since then. Tjoneslo (talk)

StellarDataQuery bug[edit]

No results

This doesn't give a space between the planet name and the statement that there are no imperial nobles

BackworldTraveller (talk) 08:52, 24 June 2020 (EDT)


When this displays in my view of it, the first lines (E: Educational Technologies) are shown as 3 columns; Education in Charted Space has a different type of bullet and all subsequent lines are in one column only. The three column layout seem to not to carry past the reversion to layer 1 in the tree. BackworldTraveller (talk) 14:44, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

Getting the Referral Tree using the multi-level trees to display in multiple columns requires adding a "div" tag. I've found, by experimentation, that a list with only few entries (6 or less) doesn't look good, so I tend to not add put the smaller lists into the three column format. Also if trying to add that to a list with more than one level, it displays in a way that isn't easy to follow. Why the bullet is different for the following list entry is a mystery of the browser rendering engine. This is all based upon experimentation and what looks good to me. I will continue to experiment and, as always, looking for advice on making things look better. Tjoneslo (talk) 15:09, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

Category: Weapon[edit]

The subcategories in this page are a mess. BackworldTraveller (talk) 14:48, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

Yes, Like the Vehicles, the categorizations for the Weapons is a complete mess and could really use some attention. Tjoneslo (talk) 15:10, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

Category: Marquis worlds[edit]

I was trying to get the Template:Imperial Nobility to add the category Marquis worlds to the worlds where a marquis was present so the list of worlds with a marquis could be shown using ClusterWorlds2 in the Marquis page. I've added a category entry on the /summary table for marquises.

When looking at Taproban (world) I can see the categorisation.

When looking at Category:Marquis worlds, it is not listed.

Is this just a timing issue about the dpl? (I have purged every related cache I can find!)

BackworldTraveller (talk) 17:59, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

Adding the category to the table entries in Imperial Nobility/summary page is the correct answer. First suggestion would be to wrap the category in <includeonly></includeonly> tags. Second suggestion would be to consider naming the category Imperial Marquis worlds, to allow distinguishing between Imperial and non-imperial nobility. Third would be the request: Can you do the rest of them? Thanks Tjoneslo (talk) 19:10, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

It seems it was just timing. And yes, given the approach works, I can do the rest - but on which basis?

If I'm to set up Imperial Marquis worlds,

  • there should be equivalent template(s) for non-Imperial Nobility naming the state. Any idea how many would be required?
    • doesn't include data on Zhodani nobility (for instance). Where does the data come from?
  • if this is done, shouldn't the page Marquis be Imperial Marquis, etc for other ranks?
    • Moving down that route is a fairly fundamental restructure of the entire nobility taxonomy.

If this is to be done should we start working upwards from c, C or D?

  • The lower the start, the more worlds fall into the category.
  • Starting from B just gets the list of worlds that were imperial at some time during history.

Does this need discussion in a separate forum?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 05:22, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

Good point about the nobility of different empires. Let's leave it the way it is now. We can use the allegiance of the world to distinguish which nobility rank we're dealing with. At some point I'd like to add the appropriate categories for all the ranks B to F. In order to distinguish the Imperial Marquis in Era:Milieu 1116 from the Republic of Regina Marquis in Era: Milieu 1900 requires being aware and querying the categories correctly. Tjoneslo (talk) 11:32, 28 June 2020 (EDT)
Categories added into summary dataBackworldTraveller (talk) 13:46, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

Stellar Template Upgrade[edit]

The templates for MonostellarSystem, BinarySystem, etc.

Could new columns be added...

  • Habitable Zone Orbit Number
  • Jump Shadow Orbit Number (100D)
  • The other limits in T5, (e.g. 1000D) could also be displayed

These could be loaded from a cargo table for each star type...only a few (hundred) rows!

I'm happy to populate that from Scouts book/T5 data for the various star types if the columns and table could be created.

BackworldTraveller (talk) 06:32, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

Good Idea. Let me put this together. Tjoneslo (talk) 11:33, 28 June 2020 (EDT)
See Template:StarData - let me know if there is any other data I should add to the table. The idea would be you can put each star type into the template, all of which go onto the Star/data page, one per row, and the whole comes out as a table that allows the user to read through when completed. Tjoneslo (talk) 12:11, 28 June 2020 (EDT)
T5 defines 3 limits: 10D=Gravitic Drive; 100D=Jump Shadow; 1000D=M-Drive Limit
To fully populate these we will need to interpolate as only the x0,x5 and M9 entries are uniformly defined for some of the values you list
What do we want to populate as the default if we haven't yet populated the table?
The T5 stellar hierarchy notes that stars can be primary, secondary or tertiary, and each of these could have a close companion. Should a parameter/column be supplied to show the separation distance from the primary of Secondary and Tertiary stars?
There is at least one star of type NS (Neutron Star) which doesn't appear in the Star Colour table.
BackworldTraveller (talk) 13:00, 28 June 2020 (EDT)
I’ll add the m-drive limit as orbit an AU. Both Book six and First In state use linear interpolation for the value not in the table. You may be able to look the values in Wikipedia. The separation of secondary stars depends on the system, and isn’t part of the Star. We may want to add a star diameter, so we know where the surface of the Star exists. Tjoneslo (talk) 13:29, 28 June 2020 (EDT)
Completed, and added Neutron Star to the Star Colour table. Tjoneslo (talk) 14:17, 28 June 2020 (EDT)
  • If you want to add an actual background color for Neutron Stars for the table, it should be blue (comparable to OB stars). --WHULorigan (talk) 08:39, 30 June 2020 (EDT)
  • For Black Hole (BH ?), could we add the colour as a black background with white text in the resulting table? Alternatively, use a dark-grey background with standard black text. --WHULorigan (talk) 08:41, 30 June 2020 (EDT)
I have data for (or can interpolate) Mass(MSol), Luminosity(LSol), Radius(RSol), Temperature range which allow calculation of Radius (AU), Diameter(AU), 10D (AU), 100D (AU) and 1000D(AU) plus Inner-Edge of HZ (AU) and outer edge of HZ (AU).
The HZ is a range that has an inner and outer value in AU. How do you wish to show that? (Because the HZ is between 273K and 323K)
T5 names one orbit...but sometimes two will fit this criteria
D stars, I assume, still use the book 6 values DB...DM not real-life classifications
O stars look complex to quantify...their stats are all over the place based on examples in Wikipedia...need to look up more astrophysics. Do you know an astrophysicist?
I have assumed a mass of 5 M.Sol for the black hole (Smallest observed) and 1.33 M.Sol for the Neutron Star.
BackworldTraveller (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2020 (EDT)
I was recommending calculating the rough mid point of the Habitable zone because there are a number of factors beyond the stellar luminosity that affect the habitability of planets. I would go with the T5 definition which pick the closest orbit to the center of the Habitable zone. T5 redefines the "D" stars into White Dwarf and Brown Dwarf, with a preference for using Brown dwarfs. I know the T5 Second Survey, during the review of the sectors would alter the D stars to the corresponding Main Sequence stars. For this table I would ignore the "D" stars, you should have the Main Sequence, a collection of Brown Dwarf, and a White Dwarf. The values for Black Holes and Neutron star's looks right. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:19, 28 June 2020 (EDT)
OK - I'm filling in the details. n.b. The mass and luminosity vales in Book 6 may have been OK in the 1980s, but they look a bit dubious now. For Class V stars (only), L = M^3.5. (approx). That relationship isn't followed. Also there seem discrepancies between Book 6 mass and actual mass of stars of the anchor classes - not large but making big difference to L because of the power relationship. Do you want me to run with the 1983 values or look to revise in line with 2020s values? The impact would also affect HZ orbits and may contradict T5 so this is not a trivial decision. BackworldTraveller (talk) 09:36, 29 June 2020 (EDT)
Let's fill out the wiki table using the 2020 values. Since this is supposed to be real science, I'd like to use the real values if at all possible. If we find discrepancies for the T5 book we can send them to Marc as errata, and have a discussion from there. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:56, 29 June 2020 (EDT)
In that case, I'd really like the values checked by someone before we publish revised values. I'm really not an astrophysicist! BackworldTraveller (talk) 10:02, 29 June 2020 (EDT)
If you have something I can send to someone, I know of a few people I can try. Or you might ask on the CotI boards or the TML. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:04, 29 June 2020 (EDT)
Brown Dwarfs have classes M, L, T and Y with very different temperatures. 1,900+, 1,700+, 900+, I just pick a middling temperature and assume type M brown dwarfs are included in type M stars? BackworldTraveller (talk) 10:20, 29 June 2020 (EDT)
Unless you can find something that says different, last I knew the M main sequence (say M9) was just the top end of the Brown Dwarf, which L, T, and Y were the main ones. But yes, lets pick a middle value for each of the L, T, and Y classes. If we need more detail it can be added later. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:07, 29 June 2020 (EDT)
M6.5 thru L0 overlap both low-mass main-sequence stars and high mass Brown dwarfs, depending mostly upon stellar metallicity, IIRC. Habitability zones (as far as stellar surface temperature goes) would still be dependent upon that stellar temperature, so I do not know if there would be a practical difference (in Traveller terms) as to whether or not an M8 star (for example) were a Red Dwarf or a Brown Dwarf. It is the same situation as a Pre-Main-Sequence Star which has not yet contracted enough to initiate nuclear burning (like Epsilon Indi - K4.5 V) versus a comparable spectrum Main-Sequence Star which is undergoing fusion. --WHULorigan (talk) 08:22, 30 June 2020 (EDT)
The main difference is that, if the primary were an M type brown dwarf, it is going to be very young and no mainworld circling it is going to have any native life on it. Also, it's not going to last long in stellar terms - but who'd notice in human ones? No-one I suspect. BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:33, 30 June 2020 (EDT)
Unless it is a captured M-Type Brown Dwarf, that would also mean the entire system (including any pre-main-sequence stars) are also likely to be very young - the exceptions would be for Y-Type (or maybe T-Type) Brown Dwarfs which have cooled down over time. --WHULorigan (talk) 14:08, 30 June 2020 (EDT)
The code for a Brown Dwarf is differentiation. Which type do we want to describe? We have to pick one.BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:33, 30 June 2020 (EDT)
Type-Y is cold enough to be emitting primarily in infrared or colder, so it would not be luminous at all. I would definitely go with L or T. (Perhaps T0 would be a nice middle-range?) --WHULorigan (talk) 14:08, 30 June 2020 (EDT)
The Only BH described for any world is in the trojan reach...and the Traveller Map only lists the companion star. BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:34, 30 June 2020 (EDT)
See: Category:Black Hole ([1]) and Category:Black Hole worlds ([2]) and Category:Neutron Star [3] --WHULorigan (talk) 14:08, 30 June 2020 (EDT)
Added draft to the talk page for the templateBackworldTraveller (talk) 09:32, 1 July 2020 (EDT)
I've done a read through the data you posted to the talk page of the template. I don't see anything terribly wrong with it. I'll need to fix temperature to accept a range (temp_min, temp_max)?, not just a middle value. Question, if we have the size of the star in AU or R.Sol we can calculate the other size values, 100D (AU/orbit), 1000D (AU/orbit) values. Less data to input, fewer chances for typos. Same for the Habitable AU, we can derive the orbit value for that as well. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:55, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

The type, size, mass and luminosity are defined values...the rest are derived. The temp value ranges are defined based on the 1st two characters of the type. If you e-mail me your contact details I can send the spreadsheet with the calcs. BackworldTraveller (talk) 15:39, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

Question about categorisation added in Template:StarData/talk. BackworldTraveller (talk) 17:43, 10 July 2020 (EDT)
Do you have a suggested example of using cargo tables I could use to update the system templates to use what has been created? BackworldTraveller (talk) 05:01, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
The challenge will be adding all of the columns from StarData into the stellar data template (e.g. Template:MonostellarSystem). They won't fit. And the current stellar data template fits nicely into the space in the articles. I have some ideas (have a two level table), but if you have any layout ideas for that I'd love to see them. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:21, 22 August 2020 (EDT)

Revised Template Example?[edit]

How about...

Star Name Hierarchy Category Mass (Sol) Temp (K) Luminosity (Sol)
System Primary Primary Main Sequence 1 5100 - 5900 1
Unit Diameter Min Distance Hab Zone Jump Shadow M-Drive Limit
AU 0.0093 0.08294 0.8 - 1.3 0.93 9.3
Orbit # n/a 4 3 7

n.b. The Solar system data by orbit number shows that Terra is inside the Hab Zone and the jump shadow includes orbit 3 and M-drive includes Saturn...a result of rounding rather than truncating?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 10:05, 22 August 2020 (EDT)

That looks great. I put together the whole thing, and updated the Template:MonostellarSystem and Template: BinaryStarSystem. The calculation for the orbit of the Habitable zone was broken in the original StarData template, so I fixed that too. If you like that, I'll update the 3,4,5,6 star system templates too. Tjoneslo (talk) 12:47, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
I'm glad you're doing that - it was more complex than I'd have expected...and well spotted re the missing data item! BackworldTraveller (talk) 13:42, 22 August 2020 (EDT)

Degenerate Dwarf (White Dwarf) companions are not showing up in the Binary Star System Stellar Data Table. See Darrian and Kusyu as examples.

--WHULorigan (talk) 11:21, 7 February 2021 (EST)
Per the comment in the Talk: Darrian (world), the white dwarf code should be "DA" or one of the other "DX" colors depending on the dwarf. Tjoneslo (talk) 22:22, 7 February 2021 (EST)

The "BH" code for Stellar Type: Black Hole appears to be broken in the various monostellar and multistellar system templates. See Spinstorme and Shadowsand.

--WHULorigan (talk) 16:49, 7 February 2021 (EST)
The "BH" got duplicated for some reason (it happens). Use the Purge Cache function to reset the pages. Tjoneslo (talk) 22:22, 7 February 2021 (EST)


InfoboxSector for Spinward Marches in no longer showing the correct subsectors in the subsector table. BackworldTraveller (talk) 07:24, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

That was caused by including the Template:InfoboxSubsectorImagemap in more than one article. I've restricted this to just the main name space, and this should fix the problem. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:45, 3 July 2020 (EDT)
Thanks. BackworldTraveller (talk) 15:36, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

Cite name not obvious[edit]

What is the correct citation name= value for "Traveller:The New Era (book)". I'm trying to update the cites in Attribute. BackworldTraveller (talk) 03:11, 5 July 2020 (EDT)

"Traveller: The New Era". It uses the full title in the infobox, the grey box at the top of the page, rather than the page name. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:25, 5 July 2020 (EDT)

Thank you! BackworldTraveller (talk) 07:59, 5 July 2020 (EDT)

Bug in Citations[edit]

Where an author's full name includes a comma, the part of the name is being red-linked. e.g. from Ludography cite|name=Character Datafile Dale C. McCoy, Jr.. Character Datafile (Jon Brazer Enterprises, 2009), .

The , Jr. is red-linked. BackworldTraveller (talk) 07:59, 5 July 2020 (EDT)

This is a parsing problem in the InfoboxBook2 template for the authors. See Character Datafile, the "Jr" is redlinked here too. The reason is the "authors=" parameter in the template is a comma separated list (A, B, etc). But of course if the name contains a comma, it gets parsed into two names. The workaround is to use the HTML code "& # 4 4 ;" (No spaces) -> Dale C. McCoy, Jr. There was some cases where that didn't parse correctly. The fix for this is to use a different character for separating the author names. We can use anything, but have to explain which character (and why), and update all the templates. Tjoneslo (talk) 08:25, 5 July 2020 (EDT)

Star Type[edit]

I was going to do an entry on the start type White Dwarf - but that term refers to the magazine.

I can see two choices...

  1. Rename the current entry as White Dwarf (magazine)
  2. Create the new entry as White Dwarf (star type)

Choice 1 may have implications for citations

Choice 2 suggests that the other star type articles should be similarly classified

Any preference?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 04:17, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

What I did:
  1. Moved (not copied) the existing White Dwarf article to White Dwarf (magazine). Moving is important because it keeps the page history with the article.
  2. Reset the existing White Dwarf article as a disambiguation page.
  3. Create the White Dwarf (star type) article. The use of the "(<name>)" is only to be used for articles where the titles overlap, and they need to be different. In general, don't add the "(<type here>)" to the article titles. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:59, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Yaskoydri Technocracy[edit]

There are 3 categories:

  • Yaskoydri Technocracy (74 members)
  • Yaskoydri Technocracy worlds‏‎ (74 Members)
  • Yaskoydri worlds‏‎ (137 members)

Any idea what the technical difference between these categories is supposed to be?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 02:17, 11 July 2020 (EDT)

Categories with a name of the form "X worlds" are there to find the worlds where "X" exists. So "Yaskoydri Technocracy worlds‏‎" are the worlds where the Yaskoydri Technocracy rules (or did at some point). "Yaskoydri worlds" would be systems where the members of the Yaskoydri race are found (or were at some point) found. The odd one out is Yaskoydri Technocracy. This would indicate articles about the Yaskoydri Technocracy, which would be the main article, and other articles discussing the government. It should include the "worlds" category as a category, but not the world articles themselves. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:43, 11 July 2020 (EDT)

Vanishing users[edit]

We seem to be getting a lot of users that have an account created, make an edit and then have their account vanish. Only 21 of the last 50 created still exist. This seems a very high clean-up overhead. BackworldTraveller (talk) 07:14, 14 July 2020 (EDT)

There is no process which removes user accounts from the wiki. There is no automated process which creates a user page for newly registered user, so if they don't create one, the user has no user page. It has been a policy not to create the user page, but let the user create their own page. It has also been my policy not to add a welcome note to their talk page until they have made an edit or two. If you want to do that as well, it may make people stick around longer. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:09, 14 July 2020 (EDT)

Privacy Policy[edit]

I note that the Privacy Policy is boiler-plate

What is the privacy policy?

What is the policy related to the security and distribution of user's private information?

What process does the site provide to receive and adjudicate privacy related complaints?

How does a user get de-registered? Indeed, given their every action is public via the history pages, this may not be practical. What is the intent regarding users that express a wish to cease involvement?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 03:32, 18 July 2020 (EDT)

There is no current privacy policy for the Traveler Wiki. Pretty much we would end up copying the Wikimedia Privacy Policy. I'd cut it down significantly, but leave the core elements there. The core elements: We collect very little personal information about you. We do not rent or sell your information to third parties.
See previous.
As there is no policy on privacy, we have no policy on resolving complaints.
There is no way to de-register a user. Any content added by user is permanently available by design. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:15, 18 July 2020 (EDT)

File Loader[edit]

Sorry - Completely lost the file loader link...BackworldTraveller (talk) 03:46, 18 July 2020 (EDT)

Menu on the left side Upload file. If you find any tools that may be useful please suggest them. The menu can be updated. Tjoneslo (talk) 05:57, 18 July 2020 (EDT)
Permission error when clicking the link above. Screenshot of what I see in the side-bar sent by e-mail. BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:03, 18 July 2020 (EDT)

Behind the Claw[edit]

Where the Mongoose Traveller version of the Behind the Claw has been added to the ludography, the existing references to the Gurps version now duplicate to show both versions in the attribution. BackworldTraveller (talk) 11:00, 24 July 2020 (EDT)

The template needs the parameter "version=GURPS Traveller" or "version=New Traveller" to disambiguate. There is a Category:Duplicate citations listing all the pages that need to be fixed in one manner or another. Tjoneslo (talk) 14:44, 24 July 2020 (EDT)
Could AB-101 default "|version=GURPS Traveller" on the existing references? BackworldTraveller (talk) 15:58, 24 July 2020 (EDT)
Done. 405 articles processed, 96 article were already correct, the rest have been updated. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:22, 24 July 2020 (EDT)
The item that started this was Walston (world) which AB-101 didn't pick up. Total is about 550. BackworldTraveller (talk) 03:58, 25 July 2020 (EDT)
Total really was 405 article, but updated another 58, leaving 38 untouched. Spaces are important for matching things. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:19, 25 July 2020 (EDT)
Brilliant - Thanks

Ad Astra class Subsidized Liner[edit]

Do you have the details for the Ad Astra class Subsidized Liner? The citation says "Marc Miller. Starships (Game Designers Workshop, 1977), 19." Which I don't own! BackworldTraveller (talk) 16:07, 1 August 2020 (EDT)

Starships is CT book 2, part of the classic set. The T5.10 three version set Starships is also the second book of the set. Most of those references are wrong in that they don't talk about the Ad Astra directly, thought that may be the name given to the generic "Subsidized Liner" design in most versions of Traveller. It will require a reference check to confirm that. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:12, 1 August 2020 (EDT)
I only have T5.0 so can't page check for v5.1. Also, the write up in v5.0 is one paragraph with no specs. BackworldTraveller (talk) 17:16, 2 August 2020 (EDT)

Referee Notes page for BTC Campaign[edit]

I understand that it is possible to get a Referee's page for the BTC campaign set up with some form of restricted access. Is my understanding correct? Are you the person to ask? BackworldTraveller (talk) 17:13, 2 August 2020 (EDT)

You are now a member of the Referee group and should have access to the namespace and be able to create pages. Tjoneslo (talk) 17:52, 2 August 2020 (EDT)
Thanks BackworldTraveller (talk) 03:10, 3 August 2020 (EDT)

Secret Template[edit]

When used in the "Campaign:" namespace, the resulting secret pages appear to get constructed and referenced in the main namespace. e.g.

Campaign:BTC/Asteroid K86932r4

BTC/Asteroid K86932r4/secret

n.b. The metadata template seems to work correctly and preserve the namespace.

BackworldTraveller (talk) 10:36, 4 August 2020 (EDT)

Fixed. Tjoneslo (talk) 12:54, 4 August 2020 (EDT)

COTI Registration expired[edit]

Is that something you also deal with?

The expired nobility registrations? no. This is managed by the user "Aramis", whom you need to connect with on the boards. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2020 (EDT)
Nope - Website registration, Hence can't contact anyone via the board! BackworldTraveller (talk) 10:24, 10 August 2020 (EDT)
There is something wrong with the CotI site at the moment. People have been alerted and the problem is being worked on. No idea of the ETA for a fix. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:29, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
Well it came up in part yesterday...and today it's been down all day. I don't know if you have direct contact (I'd suspect they know by now though).BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:21, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
Root cause of the problem has been found and resolved. You should now have access. Tjoneslo (talk) 00:00, 13 August 2020 (EDT)

Translation side effect[edit]

Note: If a page is marked for translation, and then an edit occurs, the version marked for translation is displayed by default in English, not the latest version. BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:53, 5 September 2020 (EDT)

Setting the native language for a page[edit]

Any idea how to set up a page and mark it as being in a language other than English as its native language?

i.e. A page that is natively in Spanish?

Some of the new pages are tagged internally as language=en while the text is clearly (to me) in Spanish. If I wanted a translation it would need to go the other way to what the Sugaar Editorial guys are doing.

This may become an issue if Spanish fans start setting up stuff.

BackworldTraveller (talk) 08:58, 6 September 2020 (EDT)

The internal and default language for the Wiki is English (en). Just to make that clear. In investigating your question I found the Special:PageLanguage which allows setting the language of the page from the default (English) to any other language. As you have probably observed the translation process creates a new sub-page based upon the language code (e.g. "es" for Spanish). The PageLanguage moves the page to the correct sub-page (if it doesn't exist) and leaving behind a redirect as needed. The PageLanguage page is available to the Stewards and the Translators.
Do you want to be given the "translator" privileges, to assist Felipe and the others from Sugaar? Tjoneslo (talk) 10:52, 6 September 2020 (EDT)

Sugaar Editorial Traveller[edit]

How do you wish to distinguish the Sugaar Editorial version of New Traveller?

  • Is "13Mann Traveller: Core Rules" a good basis to copy from?
  • Should the books be named "Core Rule Book" in English or "Manual básico" in Spanish?
    • Should the accent be included if the Spanish name is used?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 15:58, 6 September 2020 (EDT)

Yes, the 13Mann is a good example. "Sugaar Traveller: Manual básico" would be a good start. I prefer using the name of the article to be the name given as the title of the book from the Title Page. If that includes the accent mark, so should the article title. Redirect pages should suffice for the unaccented version. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:03, 6 September 2020 (EDT)

Exobiology & Exoscience[edit]

I would argue that definition of Exobiology given in the Wiki is, in the Imperium, effectively also the definition of Biology. The Exobiology description should move under Biology and all redirects to Exobiology should be updated to Biology.

If this isn't the case, then Biology should be scrapped for lack of explanation and redirected to Exobiology.

BackworldTraveller (talk) 05:10, 4 October 2020 (EDT)

I would similarly argue that Exoscience is effectively Science. It definitely isn't Exobiology in any case!

BackworldTraveller (talk) 05:12, 4 October 2020 (EDT)

Like so many things, this will depend on how finely we want to cut things. My proposal is there are three items: Biology is the study of a single world, hopefully uncorrupted by external forces. Xenobiology is the study of life forms between the world environments. Exobiology is the study of unconventional and exotic life forms, extremely rare and unusual.
I believe we once came up with the idea there was a new level in the taxonomic rank of organisms between wikipedia:Domain (biology) (currently the top level) and all life forms, based upon the world where they evolved.
In any cases I had not looked at the Biology article and if it needed to be updated.
Tjoneslo (talk) 07:22, 4 October 2020 (EDT)
The current definition of Biology is the scientific study of Life. Thus Exobiology is is a tautology.
BackworldTraveller (talk) 07:55, 4 October 2020 (EDT)
Traveller 5th (5.10 book 3 p.216) there is the definition of Exotic Natives, life forms living on worlds with an atmosphere type of A+ (specifically A, B or C). This would include any number of extremeophile, silicon or other chemistry based, jovian dwellers, and vacuum dwelling creatures, and other things under the definition of Unconventional Life. The presumption is the water/carbon/oxygen life forms of Terra are the conventional life forms (and the the basis for general biology study). So a separate sub-field (e.g. Exobiology) is for the study of these (relatively rarer) life forms.
The definitions of Exotic Life, Unconventional Life, and Conventional Life come from Marc's random musings about what exists in the Traveller universe. I think we can come up with better terms for these. And there should be a field of biology to study them. Also include XenoBiology for the comparison between them. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:17, 4 October 2020 (EDT)
OK - But this is not what these article say! BackworldTraveller (talk) 09:53, 4 October 2020 (EDT)
Absolutely true. I'm in the process of trying to fix them to be more coherent. I like your suggestion to move everything into the "Biology" / "Biologist" articles and redirect everything there until the sub-categories can be filled out enough to be notable. Suggestions and gentle prods always welcome. Tjoneslo (talk) 10:18, 4 October 2020 (EDT)
I have started working on Biology along those lines. n.b. I see that there are some double redirects...deliberate or accidental?BackworldTraveller (talk) 16:54, 4 October 2020 (EDT)
Double redirects are always broken and should be fixed. Tjoneslo (talk) 22:25, 4 October 2020 (EDT)

Life and Lifeform appear to be very similar...should they be merged, and if so, under which title?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 18:10, 4 October 2020 (EDT)

I agree they are similar. My preference would be for Lifeform to be the base article. Thanks for taking a look at this. Tjoneslo (talk) 22:28, 4 October 2020 (EDT)

Lunion Subsector[edit]

Drolraw/Lunion (Spinward Marches 2426)
Carse/Lunion (Spinward Marches 2224)

Neither of the above seem to return data. Any idea why not?

BackworldTraveller (talk) 17:02, 11 October 2020 (EDT)

Yes. Some update in the past to the underlying data article or the Cargo processing itself ended up deleting the data from the Cargo table. Solution: Solution: Go to the data page (Drolraw (world)/data and Carse (world)/data). Edit the page and without making any changes save the page. Then go back to the base article and under "More" menu item select the "Purge Cache". This should then properly display the data for the page. Tjoneslo (talk) 18:38, 11 October 2020 (EDT)
Done and thanks it solved it BackworldTraveller (talk) 03:40, 12 October 2020 (EDT)

Version differences[edit]

What is the policy for handling clear and distinct rules differences between editions? The affected content is on the section labeled Imperial Banking, and the content differs sharply from what is given on page 91 of the MG2 Core Rules.

Thank you,

DonaldMcLean (talk) 23:58, 11 February 2021 (EST)

Edit Watchlist[edit]

The "Edit Your List of Watched pages" button on my Watchlist Page simply takes me to a blank web page ( Is there any way to restore this functionality? --WHULorigan (talk) 11:55, 24 February 2021 (EST)

It does for me too. I'll take a look --Tjoneslo (talk) 15:30, 24 February 2021 (EST)
I guess there is no work-around for this? --WHULorigan (talk) 13:18, 26 April 2021 (EDT)
If you go to Special:Watchlist, it displays your current watchlist. How many pages are currently there? Mine shows "11,781 pages are on your Watchlist (plus talk pages)". When I went to Special:EditWatchlist I saw the blank page. I checked the server logs and saw the page generating an out of memory error. Apparently the EditWatchlist is trying to generate the whole list of 11,781 pages to remove them from the watchlist. I can increase the memory limit of the server, but don't want to leave it at an increased value to avoid causing other problems on the server. Trying to generate a full list of 11,781 pages is insane and stupid, and we should file reports to fix this problem. In any case, I know what the problem is, and if you want to edit your full watchlist, let me know and I'll up the memory on the server for a few days. Tjoneslo (talk) 23:13, 26 April 2021 (EDT)
Mine says: "6,196 pages are on your Watchlist (plus talk pages). " Is there an upper limit of pages (e.g. 5000 ?) that it needs to be under? Many of the pages on my list were auto-added because of minor edits I have made that I probably do not want to track anyway. If you up the memeroy of the server, let me know and I will edit my watchlist; I just need to know what number of entries is the maximum. --WHULorigan (talk) 06:00, 27 April 2021 (EDT)
To be clear, the memory requirement is for the "EditWatchlist" page only. Pages on the watchlist is simply pointer records in the database and has little or no other effect on the wiki. I really don't have an idea of how many articles are the upper limit on using the EditWatchlist before the memory for that one page runs out. I have found if you go to Special:Preferences, then under watchlist tab, select the "Edit raw watchlist" (or go to Special:EditWatchlist/raw), this presents the entire list as a edit box. You can remove (or add) article titles to the list and press save. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:47, 27 April 2021 (EDT)
That worked - I got it down to 2885 pages. Thanks. --WHULorigan (talk) 08:50, 27 April 2021 (EDT)

Page to delete[edit]


There are too many pages now for the Special:PrefixIndex to list them all, and when used it doesn't page through the results.

BackworldTraveller (talk) 11:56, 18 March 2021 (EDT)


File:Starships Book II0I0 Cargo Barque.pdf has been uploaded instead of the fronticepiece...Please delete this file ASAP!