User talk:Nasat
Welcome to the Traveller Wiki. Thank you for your contributions. I'm bringing up your ideas of the placement of the Guy-Toy and Hresh to the wiki editors. I like your ideas and would like to make them more permanent. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask on my talk page or in the Forums. Tjoneslo (talk) 22:27, 31 December 2022 (EST)
Please sign your talk page posts[edit]
As a courtesy to the many people who will read your insightful comments on the talk pages, can you please sign your posts by adding four tildes like this:
~~~~
to the end of each comment. This will let everybody know who they are talking to. Thank you for your updates and research into the sophonts and their worlds. Tjoneslo (talk) 11:47, 2 January 2023 (EST)
Work on Tuglikki[edit]
Hey mate, thanks for the ongoing contribs to Tuglikki and other sectors, appreciated. I'm going through worlds at the moment and don't want to end up with edit conflicts and so forth if we happen to edit the same paragraph (happened in the past), so figured it would be polite to give you a heads-up on it as I'm active on those pages.
Apologies if it happens, not deliberate. No worries if it likewise occurs to me, these things happen. C'est la vie.
If you fancy using images to pretty up the world articles you can find my current image library at my user page: User:Alagoric - please feel free to use for articles. It includes the basic star images too - if you find a weird stellar combo let me know and I'll create an image as appropriate, it only takes a few minutes.
Feel free to leave "easter eggs" in a few systems too - something sparks the ol' imagination, go for it!
Anything I can help with, let me know.
Thank you!
I'm slightly in awe at how much you're getting done; keep this up and this wiki will be near-comprehensive of Charted Space before long.
Nasat (talk) 10:23, 30 November 2023 (EST)
Image Links[edit]
Hey mate, loving your work in Zho space and elsewhere! I don't want to be tripping over your work, so heading back to Fulani Sector to get that finished.
Dunno if its of any use, but feel free to plunder these image sources to your heart's content.
User:Alagoric - links to image galleries are there. Usage notes are included, but if its not clear, I'm happy to help.
If you want, I can pass you template sheets for world layout and so forth so we're (kind of) standardized. New images can be created (star combinations or moons for example) as required - just let me know and I'll get them sorted.
Oh, please continue on the Zho territories! As you've probably noticed, I tend to follow you around, knowing that you'll do all the real work and I can just add in little details in the aftermath ;)
I'm constantly impressed at how much work you put in; in time you'll have every world on the map covered.
And, yes, I really should start using those images you've put together.
Nasat (talk) 10:42, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
Cool as! And thanks, hugely appreciate your input and support.
Levels of Header[edit]
These are the levels of header we seem to have finalized:
== (Level 2): Major Headers ==
(two sets of equals)
Pretty much divides the article into physical stats, social stats, and references
=== (Level 3): Each UWP Stat ===
(three sets of equals)
Also includes star type and system info.
==== (Level 4): Extra Details Spilling Off Of The Specific UWP Stat ====
(four sets of equals)
Categories within Social Details include:
=== Population (P) ===
==== Urbanization ====
==== Languages ====
=== Government (G) ===
==== World Military ====
Pretty sure you know all this, but better to say than assume. The current usage was condensed down from the original layout put together by Maksim (which was always designed to be pruned). Its always easier to delete the surplus than have to type in huge amounts of basic info, y'know.
Anyhoo, hope that helps summarize the basic layout that we're currently using. No doubt that will change again...
Passing this link on to be sure we've both got it (you probably have).
Link to Zhodani Space about the sector: [1]
Carillon[edit]
What do you think the deal with the Carillon is? I mean in terms of what they are.
Pretty sure they're not human or a minor human race in their own right, and they seem to have been around way too long to be simply a cultural region, as it were, so that most likely indicates they're a minor sophont species. They're really big on biotech and have been using it as their primary technological base for about 9000 years. Their "homeworld" (if they are indeed a minor race) is a pretty decent garden world too, sort of the ideal spot for a minor race to originate from. Their long recorded history (9000 years from the point they reach TL-1) indicates that they've been there a heck of a lot longer, in order to work their way up to TL-1 (if you see what I mean).
If they are transplanted humans (effectively an offshoot culture of some earlier civilization), they've been around longer than the region has had FTL travel (except perhaps for a few wandering Droyne). Are they the descendants of some human minor race that used slower than light drives in the distant past?
The Carillon Harmonies article indicates that they're fairly "piratey" too, though that document is very sparse.
This is what I've been using for reference:
29 references in the Zho Space article, none of them are terribly definitive.
On balance, them being a separate sophont species seems right, but it's kind of ... weird, somehow ... that they've never been included as an article - folks are pretty meticulous in going thru sources and I'd be very surprised if the Carillon have been missed.
I'm reluctant to forge ahead and create them as a minor race without hearing a few opinions on it, see what the consensus is. Mate, I'd very much welcome your views.
It *is* odd that they've not been expanded on; I always found it strange that those Australian materials (which I'm also referencing) didn't flesh them out when most other factions of the sector received sizeable articles. In fact, I was always wary of suggesting anything precisely because I thought that Schneider, Sinclair and the rest of the HIWG Australia team must have had ideas; since I defer to their stuff in anything Yiklerzdanzh-related, it seemed wrong to pre-empt them. But maybe they never got around to completing the Carillon?
I recall almost all the Carillon references also referring to their gene-engineered biotechnology, to the point that it seems their defining feature, at least so far as the rest of the sector is concerned. I think it's all but explicit that the Carillon are indeed supposed to be non-Human, and probably quite "odd". Honestly, I'm afraid I'm probably not much use here, since I haven't gotten anything for them beyond what you've already collected!
As for the corsair bases all over, I assume it's related to the factoid that they prefer democracies. They don't seem aggressive -- many of the references are to trade and exchange with other societies, including living alongside other races -- so I'm guessing it's not hostility, just a refusal to impose on free-spirited individualism, even when those individuals are causing trouble?
With Talpaku, S'raak, a reference to natives on Zdalzi, and Carillon, we'd have four minor sophont races native to the sector, which seems a reasonable number? Not too crowded with local life, but colourful enough to be interesting.
Sorry I haven't gotten anything more useful! Nasat (talk) 20:39, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
White Dwarf Stars[edit]
So this is a world that has a "difficult" star - a solitary D Type white dwarf stellar remnant on Trav Map.
D Types are nasty little bastards, the leftover remnants of a dead star, no fusion, radiating residual heat so virtually no habitable zone, and sporting huge magnetic fields with strengths that are beyond evil (rip the iron out of blood cells levels). No way can habitable worlds (normally) orbit these things. Burned out cinder worlds sure, frozen iceworlds maybe, perhaps even exotic atmos hellworlds, but definitely not pleasant "shirtsleeve" planets.
Yiklerzdanzh Sector has more than a few solitary dwarf stars with "nice" planets (and outright more dwarf stars than a sector really should), and with the best will in the world no way can we justify all of them in the numbers we need, especially agricultural worlds or the like. Some we can explain for sure (outer system iceworlds, magic tech, or shielded subterranean life for example), just not that sheer amount.
They exist in the sector coz it was generated with an older world generation sequence, one that gave some pretty funky results in terms of the system's stars (plus I suspect there was a certain lack of understanding among the designers about the nature of stars too). Josh at Trav Map (and Marc too) have okayed me updating the data for the more "troublesome" sectors, with a whole bunch of caveats of course, not something that is done unilaterally - this includes the actual coding for Trav Map on GitHub as well as the Wiki articles (... I absolutely love doing it tbh...) More specifically than anything else, they would like the stars (and trade codes) "put right".
But, Yiklerzdanzh, I really don't want to do that - it's a "legacy" sector and is the vision of the folks at HIWG Oz, so I'm not particularly comfortable updating the basic coding without contacting them first and making sure its exactly how they want it to be. But, those worlds and their stars are a bit of an issue.
With that in mind, I've presented the various Dwarf Star systems in the sector as "misidentified" stars, at least in terms of Imperial AAB databases - that way we preserve the original data on Trav Map, create a star system that is a bit more plausible on the Wiki, and potentially set up an intriguing or sinister plot line or two: was the star type got wrong coz of inept scouting by the Impies? Was it some sort of data corruption - accidental or "hacked"? Or perhaps did they (whoever "they" turn out to be - anti-colonization groups perhaps) make those particular systems seem that much less desirable for their own purposes, at least to anyone who had casual access to star charts or stellar data? Do the Zho know? Are they responsible, perhaps socially engineering or manipulating the minor polities on their rimward border, who perhaps rely on them for survey data? Any plot twists or thoughts welcome.
However, it's important to preserve a few of those dwarf stars, since they're part of the flavor of the sector. So where they seem to be part of a bigger story arc (like those in Rom's Loch Subsector) or when they have suitably cruddy mainworlds, they remain in place, but in regions like Akigura Subsector, where their presence seems to be more coincidental in nature, I've updated them.
Would very much welcome your opinion on implementing this - does it work as a thing? is this a reasonable approach? - or any other thoughts.
I think your approach is a good one; I'd say it strikes the right balance between plausibility and consistency with others' work -- and, as you say, it suggests various potential stories, which is (we have to assume) part of the point in having these systems depicted here (my strange love of cataloguing fictional universes in detail for its own sake aside -- something I'm guessing you share, given how much work you put in!). I think it's rather like what you did with the various "Flaming Eye" systems, actually; keeping the published names and system descriptions as much as possible while helping them conform to the Map data (correct me if I'm wrong there). It seems reasonable that if the original materials seem to stress something that isn't possible, then the compromise position is "this is what the records say". Which would make speculation based on possible answers entirely valid, in my eyes. It reminds me too of how Geir Lanesskog handled some of the details about the Sred*Ni in "The Spinward Extents", or what the authors of "New Era: Aliens of the Rim" did with the original Hiver material -- making "this doesn't seem to make much sense, what's going on here?" into an in-universe mystery and a solid, engaging part of the setting (admittedly easier to do with enigmatic aliens than with stars, though as you allude to, maps are about what people insist is there not what actually is). This may be just my personal bias, but I also think that changing star types is a lot less likely to tread on peoples' sense of contribution than changing, say, names or cultural details. And, honestly, since one of the appeals of the setting is the lack of FTL communication and the limits to jump drive, reminders that people are dependent on potentially questionable records rather than up-to-date information can only enhance the setting. (I also like the idea that some in the Imperium are looking over old Yiklerzdanzh data and saying "I see the Tozjabr gave the intern this assignment. Nice try, Joe. You've made the area look *too* useless, don't overdo it next time").
Nasat (talk) 06:06, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
Excellent, thanks mate! Good points well made, appreciated.
...those damned Tozjbar...
Class and Trade[edit]
Hey mate, hope you're good. Nice job on the spread of world images and art, weird and also cool to see it popping up on articles. ... Nasat woz 'ere ...
Noticing that in the world info box, there seems to be a consistent thing going on. You'll know this element:
... |alg = NaHu |class = |trade = ...
"class" is an abbreviation of "Trade Classification". These are the classic trade codes that we know and love, Ag, He, Hi, Po, Ga etc.
"trade" is a switch that changes the background color for Name/Subsector/Sector/Hex on the infobox on the right-hand side of the world article, below where the world image goes and above where it shows the amber strip or red strip for travel zone status. The idea is that it gives an "at a glance" idea of the physical nature of the world and whether it is considered "shirtsleeve" or not
This color defaults to standard green, but different background colors are activated by one of these "switch" codes, in lower case:
- as (asteroid belt, turns the background dark gray)
- de (desert world, turns the background tan)
- fl (fluid world, turns the background pink)
- he (hell world, turns the background orange)
- ic (ice capped world, turns the background pale blue)
- ga (garden world, should turn the background darker green, but it needs fixing coz it's indistinguishable from standard green)
- oc (ocean world, turns the background darker blue)
- po (poor world, turns the background murky green)
- va (vacuum world, turns the background pale gray
- wa (water world, turns the background medium blue)
The apparent accepted rule is that the first one of these to occur in the Class (Trade Classifications) is used - so a De He Po (a poor desert hell world) would default to "de" in the Trade box, coz De is the first one alphabetically in the listing. Most worlds have none or only one "switch" code.
Just enter a single code though, or the switch won't work and it'll default to the standard green.
If none of the switches listed above occur, just put in a lower case version of whatever the first occurring trade code is. This is an element of future proofing, just in case different colors are instigated for hi population worlds or similar.
Hope I'm not being patronizing or teaching granny to suck eggs by mentioning this, definitely not intended. And many thanks for all your excellent contributions, a real pleasure working on this stuff with you.
Ah! Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, that bit confused me. I still have a few things to learn! I appreciate the explanation.
Nasat (talk) 09:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Trade Codes[edit]
Sometimes the sequencing of trade codes isn't logical - (the Raslet Diadem, a world wot you created, is a good example of this). Ph and Pi come after Va - it's all because of stupid retconned T5 codes, and (quite understandably) folks not wanting to rewrite hundreds of trade code entries. If you know the quirks you know, but if you don't it's an absolute pain trying to figure it out.
If a trade code doesn't work, check out this list to see the correct sequencing for the codes. Codes are (mostly) in alphabetical order, so you should be able to figure out the first code, then by looking down thru the list you should be able to find the right combination.
Trade classification/summaries
I've got to admit, I have to refer to it occasionally, especially if the Trav Map codes aren't presented in alphabetical order.
Don't go editing it or adding to it too much tho – (unless you spot a real boner of a spelling mistake, that's fair game) – folks who spent a long time working on it will be properly miffed....
Additional Codes
Additional codes like Cs Cx (capital), Da Pz Fo (travel zones), Ht Lt (tech level notations), Fr Co Tu Tp Tr Ho (climate codes), and others get their own individual templates. These are coded one at a time using the following template line for each:
{World summary comment|trade= }}
- (be sure to use double curly brackets at each end - be aware there's only one at the left in the example above. If I write both, the template activates rather than being readable as text...)
Check out worlds I've done for examples of usage, and of course any queries please feel free to ask, I'm always happy to help if I can. Take it easy
Filling sources templates[edit]
I don't like to be negative, for all of the great work you have been doing. But could I ask please do not add authors and contributors to the sources template who have not contributed to the articles. There is an exact definition of contributor in the Manual of Style, and a much looser one in actual practice. But the wiki editorial team does try to ensure the the sources template is accurate about who has written contributions to the article.
Again, thank you for all of your work. It's great to see the articles coming together. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:45, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for the notice; I'll be more careful with that going forward.
Nasat (talk) 19:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
Real-Universe Stars in Articles[edit]
Could you do me a favour (since I tend to like to track such things and integrate them): When you add a Real-Universe Star to one of your article write-ups that does not already have an entry under Category: Star (e.g. ... primary star of the Steiaseah system was designated by the ancient Terrans as Scheat or Beta Pegasi ... on the Khtoiakta Subsector page), could you leave me a note over on my Talk page Talk:WHULorigan? That will let me know it needs a write-up. I'll make a Section Heading there for Wanted Star Articles.
- --WHULorigan (talk) 15:21, 13 February 2025 (UTC)
Will do!
Nasat (talk) 16:21, 13 February 2025 (UTC)
Current Work[edit]
Its one of the issues I found that really got me - The Khavle Main had notes relating to the Oreo Cluster. According to the revision history that particular edit was added by Ssteve back in 2020 - I suspect it was a cut and paste that didn't get corrected. Honestly I've been holding off on doing it til I'd scoured the sources and the Wiki for references (always a chance some canon thing had misnamed or misplaced Oreo) rather than diving right in, bull in a china shop and all that, and changing things over that might later require "uncorrecting".
I'm in the process of doing the Khavle Main even as we converse. I usually do these things as a series of parses, aiming for one element at a time and trying to get it right. That can look kind of weird at various stages of the process, giving a very fragmented appearance, especially when I have to leave it coz real life (including the occasional need to sleep) rears its ugly head. Really appreciate your keeping on top of these things, many thanks.
And (bit of a creative ask here) don't fancy coming up with a weird cargo or two, do you, by any chance?
Ah, you were well ahead of me; no surprise there, really!
I hope I don't cause too much trouble darting around; I'm aware that you do these things in stages and I have a bad habit of running in like a jackal at a lion's kill and adding/changing little things. Do let me know if I'm getting underfoot!
I'm sure I can find/come up with some cargoes; I'll give it a go!
Nasat (talk) 09:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Ganad, Dunea, nice one, thank you! I would have gotten there in the end, but the heads-up is very much appreciated.
One of the reasons I switch between quite different projects is that I get a bit "word blind" sometimes.
Kolire Sector[edit]
I noticed you were doing some development on the Kolire Sector and its subsectors and included a reference from the metadata page that I included about that apocryphal large unnamed polity to trailing of the Hive Federation located there amidst the Kolire-Kidunal Sparsity. I uploaded a "blow-up" of a screenshot of the relevant hand-drawn map region onto the metadata page(s) with labels for clarity so that you can see what I was referring to, in case you or others do not have access to the document.
- --WHULorigan (talk) 07:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
I didn't have access to that document, so thank you for that!
Nasat (talk) 07:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
- You're welcome. The polity border is easy to miss on the map if you are not paying close attention, and presents quite the interesting little (or not so little) enigma. What is that large polity, in void-space, right off the Hiver border to Trailing, that they are hiding and/or not telling us about?
- --WHULorigan (talk) 08:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
The fact that there's a sector with the intriguingly unusual name of "The Roast" just to rimward-trailing might tie into this somehow...
Nasat (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Discord connection[edit]
Nasat, Pakkrat here. Should you need to ask me details on Knoellighz Sector, you can tap me on Discord as Pakkrat#7505 and I can answer questions or clarify something I wrote. I'm heartened that the sector is seeing some love finally. Perhaps 1105 map will get linked to 1200 map and even 1900 map.