Talk:Nobles of Celepina
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Celepina is shown in Traveller map data as having a knight but no Count.
Celepina is referred to under several pages (e.g. Aramis (SM 3110) (world) as being the seat of the County of Celepina. The comms and base layout certainly suggests that Celepina is important politically.
There seems to be a county based at Henoz (next door) that would be the Ag world for a county.
Has an automated allocation process in the T5 re-work replaced a one-off political one from way back?
As a plausible ways out...
- Historic name with the administration at Celepina and county estates at Henoz?
- County of Celepina is actually short for County of Celepina and Henoz?
- » BackworldTraveller (talk) 12:00, 24 May 2020 (EDT)
- Possibly. But remember that the Noble Extension on Traveller Map is denoting explicitly (and ONLY) the Landed Noble Representatives assigned to represent that world before the Moot and the Interstellar Community (i.e. Subsector/Sector), and who would be uniquely titled (in this case) as "Count of Henoz". Also remember that under T5 all Landed Noble titles are assigned to a specific world, not a mutli-world group (in fact it is likely that it was intended that way pre-T5 as well, but people mis-interpreted the phrase that Counts were "associated" with "two or three worlds" as meaning that they had direct jurisdiction or control over 2-3 worlds - ("Interstellar Government begins at the Subsector Level..."). "Association" can mean many things (including simply where they have their principal lands/properties/fiefs), but the Count's title was always either associated with his/her "Surname" (Ceremonial/Honor Noble) or ONE of the worlds of the "County" (Landed/High Noble). As the Traveller Adventure shows concerning Count Celepina and Marquis Bolden-Tukera in Aramis, the County-association may well have to do with fealty-oaths or subsidiary titles rather than direct oversight. The one canonical example we do have of a Landed Noble of Celepina is Contesa the General Sir Aia of Celepina:
- In the case above it is like that a Landed Marquisate at some point was directly converted into a Landed Countship (bypassing the Viscountcy-rank entirely), while the Marquisal Title is still retained as a Subsidiary Ceremonial/Honour Title submerged within the Greater Title. The Contessa also holds the independent Subsidiary Title of Baroness Zivije. So the one thing that can be said of this individual is that she is the Landed Noble regarding both Celepina and Zivije, and likely holds the fealty of Aramis as well if that relationship exists for her as it does for Steros Hamil Knowln. It would be odd, I would think, that Henoz would not be mentioned in any way for either her or Steros if in fact either of them held it as a County Seat while simply having their primary estate at Celepina. As a historical example, the Dukes and Marquises of Montrose (located in eastern Scotland) were also by much longer tradition the Lords Graham who had their traditional family and Clan Seat at Mugdock Castle in the South Central Highlands near the MacGregor and MacFarlane Lands and Loch Katrine and Loch Lomond, which is nowhere near Montrose (they were elevated to Earls, and then Marquises and Dukes of Montrose at later dates, respectively and successively). Though they always maintained their traditional seat and place of residence at Mugdock Castle in the heart of Graham Lands, they still used their (highest) title of Earl/Marquis/Duke of Montrose. I the case of Celepina, if the Counts were actually the Counts of Henoz, I would think that is the title they would go by and simply have their estate on some of their fief-lands located on Celepina if that was their preference, perhaps for historical or political reasons.
- » --WHULorigan (talk) 18:12, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
- In the case above it is like that a Landed Marquisate at some point was directly converted into a Landed Countship (bypassing the Viscountcy-rank entirely), while the Marquisal Title is still retained as a Subsidiary Ceremonial/Honour Title submerged within the Greater Title. The Contessa also holds the independent Subsidiary Title of Baroness Zivije. So the one thing that can be said of this individual is that she is the Landed Noble regarding both Celepina and Zivije, and likely holds the fealty of Aramis as well if that relationship exists for her as it does for Steros Hamil Knowln. It would be odd, I would think, that Henoz would not be mentioned in any way for either her or Steros if in fact either of them held it as a County Seat while simply having their primary estate at Celepina. As a historical example, the Dukes and Marquises of Montrose (located in eastern Scotland) were also by much longer tradition the Lords Graham who had their traditional family and Clan Seat at Mugdock Castle in the South Central Highlands near the MacGregor and MacFarlane Lands and Loch Katrine and Loch Lomond, which is nowhere near Montrose (they were elevated to Earls, and then Marquises and Dukes of Montrose at later dates, respectively and successively). Though they always maintained their traditional seat and place of residence at Mugdock Castle in the heart of Graham Lands, they still used their (highest) title of Earl/Marquis/Duke of Montrose. I the case of Celepina, if the Counts were actually the Counts of Henoz, I would think that is the title they would go by and simply have their estate on some of their fief-lands located on Celepina if that was their preference, perhaps for historical or political reasons.
Regarding General Sir Aia, Contessa of Celepina , Marquessa Celepina, Baroness Zivije, OEG. [1]
- » Note that there is an "Aia" listed as the sister of Emperor Tomutov I, daughter of Emperor Paulo I and Empress Consort Kaira.
- --WHULorigan (talk) 18:16, 19 March 2025 (UTC)
- ↑ 1.0 1.1 Marc Miller. Guide to Classic Traveller (Far Future Enterprises, 2010), p.21 (footnote).