Talk:Tech Level Comparison Chart/meta

From Traveller Wiki - Science-Fiction Adventure in the Far future
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Traveler and GURPS TLs (2018)[edit]

When referencing TLs in this section one has to be careful one is using the correct system as past Traveler TL-8 the GURPS TL system is very broad in what it covers. If one looks at the Tech Level Comparison Chart itself it is clear GURPS 4e TL9^-10^ covers Traveler Quality of Life TL 8 though 20, Transportation TL 9 to 21, and Military Technology TL 9 though 21.

So when GURPS Interstellar Wars says 'TL10 represents the “Imperial standard” technology' it is talking about it on its scale not Traveler's. In terms of Traveler TLs, per the conversion chart, this is 10 though 20 in Quality of Life, 12+ in Transportation, and 10+ in military technology.--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:06, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

Since this is the metadata page, when we discuss other game system (like GURPS) we should use the standards of terminology and formatting of that game system. It's not like Traveller is entirely internally consistent about the TL scale.
- Tjoneslo (talk) 12:21, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
I have tried that but Maksim-Smelchak keeps reverting stuff. For example GURPS TLs are TLx while here TL-x is used for Traveler TLs. IMHO using the same format for both Traveler and GURPS TL just confuses people....which defeats the whole purpose of a meta page. In fact, Maksim-Smelchak has mistakenly linked GURPS TLs to the wrong Traveler TLs showing the confusion I am talking about.
If you really look at it, TL11+ in GURPS 4e can be anything ranging from Traveler TL-12 (Ultra-Tech) on up. So GURPS TL11 can be Traveler TL-12, Traveler TL-19, or anything between the two or beyond. And that is without throwing in GURPS' superscience category which is "off" the GURPS TL scale entirely. This is why Azoth-7 can have fast interstellar travel (ie Jump Drives; Traveler TL-9) at TL4^ in GURPS 4e which Traveler TL-2. Turtledove's short story "Road not Taken" gives a rough idea what such a civilization would look like. In terms of "standard" Traveler TLs they would get their clocks cleaned by anybody TL-7 or higher.
- BruceGrubb (talk) 15:20, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
I agree with you. Maksim has a habit of reverting changes he doesn't like and leaving explanations in the summary field, which doesn't leave much room for discussion. I've tried, unsuccessfully obviously, to get him to change. But thank you very much for the updates, I remember the GTL to TTL mappings were always messy.
Ultra-tech2 also introduced an Alternative Technology system (See pUT2:5-10). The GT Core book use the "SafeTech" variant. TL12 / TL13 but none of the nano-tech, AI, robots, and other cool things.
However with the advent of T5, this is beginning to shift a little. Some of the "forbidden" technology is beginning to leak back into Traveller universe. Which makes things even muddier.
- Tjoneslo (talk) 16:45, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
GTIW tries to simply things by focusing on the Interstellar Wars (2114-2302 CE) period which reduced the amount of Traveler TL it had to try and convert. Nano-tech is mentioned in passing, AI shows up as do robots but they are not self aware.
David L Pulver stated that for 3e Ultra-Tech and Ultra-Tech II "often some gadgets were pushed forward a TL or so just to give me something useful to prevent the TL11-16 chapters from being too empty!" So one has to take the placement of anything in the TL11-16 range in 3e GURPS with a grain of salt. This is why I prefer to use 4e Ultra-Tech...less of that nonsense though it does drop the ball a bit by assigning superscience TLs to specific "normal" TLs. Superscience is supposed to be it own TL totally separate from a normal TL.--BruceGrubb (talk) 21:06, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

Bruce, much of your material is GURPS specific. We default to FFE and OTU canon ideas.

  • GURPS 4th Edition Ultra-Tech doesn't belong here in the citations.
  • It definitely belongs at the GURPS wiki.
  • It's not about like or not like, as mentioned by TJonesLo.... It's about the mission parameters that I was given and follow. I like both of your materials very much.
  • GTL to TTL mappings are always messy, especially from canon TL:9 to TL-15.
  • And both the GURPS and T5 Tech Level systems are evolving. As Thomas very aptly puts it, it's getting even muddier.
  • I also get the distinct impression, Bruce, that you have very little familiarity with the T5 tech system.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:52, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

GURPS 4th Edition Ultra-Tech is how we know what devices are what TL in GURPS 4e as GURPS Traveler is not that informative on the matter.

  • The technology section on pages 499-507 of T5.07 is, IMHO, overly complicated.
  • It is not so bad if one limits the comparison to the 4 categories that exist in the two systems (Transportation; Weapons and Armor; Power; Biotechnology/Medicine) and see where the results cluster. Some of the other categories are headache inducing.
  • For example, the social category is, to put it bluntly, a disaster; Kingdoms existed long before the Middle Ages (Kingdom of Israel; Kingdom of Herod the Great, etc) and the Greeks had Democracy long before the 1700s CE.
  • Environs is IMHO borderline useless.
- BruceGrubb (talk) 20:48, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

Bruce, do you own a copy of T5?

  • T5 isn't meant to be all things to all people. It's a frame work and one that's been rather successful for over 40 years.
  • If you really want to change Traveller, I highly recommend you contact Marc Miller. He's very friendly and open-minded.
  • Other than that, Traveller is how he wants it to be and he's the boss.
  • The proper way to change it is to work through the system.
  • The articles here are meant to be in-universe, and I'll be relocating your research to metanotes if you don't do it first.
  • You might just want to link to the GURPS wiki, directly to your articles rather than play around with what is here. It would be more efficient.
  • Personally, I am fascinated with your research and have spoken with D. Pulver before. I'd love to see what you further develop.
  • I have nearly a hundred pages of Tech notes with careful citations over 40 year of Trav materials. I'd love to exchange research with you.
  • Thanks for all that you have added.
  • I also love speaking with folks in person, via voice. I know most of the community this way.You have my E-mail. Let's chat.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:08, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
Core rulebook only. I much prefer the way GTIW is set up.
  • Interestingly even though the T5 book is from 2015 its only mention of GURPS Traveller is that of the classic version which was set in "alternate universe in which Strephon was not assassinated and the MegaTraveller Rebellion did not happen." as a "previous edition".
  • GTIW is not even mentioned even though it was 9 years old when this edition came out.
- BruceGrubb (talk) 21:36, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

Bruce, Classic Traveller was first published in 1977 CE, long before you were born.

  • It's core demographic is much older than you. We actually grew up before personal computers and cell phones. The 1977 Trav Tech was high tech in those times.
  • Of course, GURPS products are more attractive to you. It's what you know. You don't seem really very familiar with Classic Traveller or the world of early RPG's.
  • GURPS Space and even GURPS was inspired by Traveller and liberally borrows from Traveller ideas.
  • GURPS Trav was headed by a Classic Traveller mind.
  • I am inviting you to swap notes and chat if you'd like. Please send me your tele or cell via E-mail if you are interested.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:54, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

I was born in 1966 some 11 years before Classic Traveller came out. Like so many people of the 1970s D&D was my first RPG.

  • I was introduced to Man to Man (the precursor to GURPS) in 1985 and GURPS has been may go to every since.
  • Funny thing is I would go to Ohio State University to learn the "latest" technology...and they had us doing punch cards of all things.
  • It was bizarre to use an Apple II in my high school and go to learn technology at a University that was, for all practical purposes, obsolete.
- BruceGrubb (talk) 22:03, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

It's certainly a strange world we live in. I stand by being mistaken. Who could know?

  • How did you not get more exposure to Traveller?
  • I was an early programmer at one point, and I feel utterly outdated when I look at code today, even after having learned much of it.
  • I'm very glad that Thomas had a proficiency with code. Thomas shares your affection for GURPS. He worked on much of it.
  • Today's computers make me fond for the giant ENIAC's for those days.
  • The USAF had some pretty basic electronics when I started. I loved solid state and analog.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:24, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
  • Traveller just wasn't on my area's radar for what ever reason. Call of Cthulhu, Toon, Champions (precursor to the Heroes RPG); Gramma World as well as some no one remembers titles were but not Traveller.
  • As I remember my only knowledge of Traveler back then was through Dragon Magazine (on a side note I have the digital versions of Dragon magazine up to 250 that came out in the 1990s)
  • With GURPS Space (1988) it became a case of why bother?
--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:00, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

Well, we focus on and bother with Traveller here... so we do bother. It means something to us.

  • I really like GURPS Space, but trying to make Traveller into GURPS Space won't work here. It's great idea at the GURPS wiki though.
  • I have a fond memory of those Dragon magazines as well.
  • I might recommend pouring through Traveller's 40 years of publications to learn more about why we here... do bother. It's a labor of love.
  • There's something very special about Traveller and very distinct from GURPS Space.
  • Let's chat more sometime please, away from a forum or talk page here.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:27, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

It is worth noting that GURPS has genre as well as setting books.

  • GURPS Space is a genre book; GURPS Traveler - Interstellar Wars is a setting book.
  • I have found that the genre GURPS books compliment other games very well even if you can't/don't use the GURPS mechanics.
  • You can build everything from new alien races (with their own societies), new planets, solar systems and so on with GURPS Space. GURPS Traveler - Interstellar Wars on the other hand is kind of "locked" into that 200 year time period with the focus on 2170 CE.
  • This is why I had the 'why bother?' reaction once GURPS Space came out. It was far more flexible. It could not only do Traveler but Starjammer, Space 1889, Flash Gordon, Star Trek, Star Wars, and other other space setting you desired as well.
- BruceGrubb (talk) 10:22, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

Ok, Bruce. Thanks for sharing your opinions.

  • I own probably at least 50% of the GURPS output including most of the sci-fi titles. I like them a lot.
  • Still, this is a Traveller wiki for Traveller oriented materials. That's the bottom line.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 15:19, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

Bruce says: "When referencing TLs in this section one has to be careful one is using the correct system as past Traveler TL-8 the GURPS TL system is very broad in what it covers."

Alright then, let's make sure readers understand this and know how to deal with it. If that means we need text explaining how GURPS 3/4 TLs tend to get exponential in the upper registers, then by cracky let's explain it and move on.

Obviously I'm misunderstanding what this discussion is about, because it seems very simple to me:

1. Tech Level Comparison Chart has GURPS: Traveller TLs.

2. GTLs have a lot of contextual wiggle room in the upper levels. This gets nuanced with setting products e.g. GTIW.

3. If the reader doesn't know this, then he will be misled.

4. The reader should be informed.

I'm sure we can do this without changing the focus of the wiki. I'm sure Bruce is willing to bide by the rules of the wiki.

Rje (talk) 21:53, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

Thanks, Rob. Sent you some communication.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:18, 7 May 2018 (EDT)

It's a little messier than that because in GURPS superscience is its own TL.

  • In theory you could have a GTL8^ culture able to hold its own against TTL-25.
  • I have sat down with Traveler 5e and GURPS 4e and put together a very crude TL conversion chart so people have a ballpark idea where things go pearshaped. Roma Universalis at TL3^ is the earliest GTL example I know of that has manned interplanetary Travel.

Then you have the range even at the lower GTLs.

  • Take GTL7 for example. You go from vacuum tubes to transistors to microchips in just that TL. That is T5TLs 6-8 ie three Traveler 5 TLs in one GURPS TL.
--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:05, 7 May 2018 (EDT)
Thank you for this page and attention to detail.
In my dim memory of working with GURPS, I realized there is another point of fractures. GURPS use "Technology Level" as a setting descriptor, a notation of the generally available technology of the whole setting. Traveller uses "Technology Level" mostly as an economic indicator, which is why it varies across the setting. Traveller does have an idea of "max TL", which is the match for the GURPS TL idea. There is a mapping (sort of) in GT:Far Trader. Tjoneslo (talk) 17:42, 7 May 2018 (EDT)
GURPS also uses "Technology Level" to 'determine starting wealth, as technologically advanced societies tend to be richer'. (Basic Set pg 27) GLT4 is $1,000 while GTL7 is $15,000 for example. GURPS Space adds to this by having Base Per-Capita Income based on TL with wealth modifiers much like GT:Far Trader did.--BruceGrubb (talk) 20:30, 7 May 2018 (EDT)

Bruce, it's some pretty neat research that you've done.

  • Thanks for sharing it.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:30, 7 May 2018 (EDT)

Glad to help but I am wondering why put the Tech Level Comparison Charts in the meta page? It's redundant unless you are showing changes to the Traveler TL system from say classic to 5e.

  • IMHO the meta page should explain the differences between GURPS and Traveler TLs and how the chart was formulated.
  • GURPS Superscience really messes things up as any TL connected to the "^" is arbitrary. Yes GURPS Ultra-Tech has Rigid Dyson Spheres and Ringworlds at TL12^ but they can just as easily show up in a TL7^ or TL9^ civilization.
  • If this wasn't fun enough GURPS 4e Fantasy introduced the idea of Equivalent TL to GURPS. Superscience is effectively magic (ie violates known physical laws) and you have have a TL6^ civilization have what first appears to be TL9-11 devices but in reality is far closer to TL6 then to TL9 (much less TL11) Star Trek the Original Series is a prime example of this.
--BruceGrubb (talk) 20:49, 7 May 2018 (EDT)

Bruce Leslie Grubb, please contact me at CotI or off-site, perhaps Facebook, E-mail, or another method.

  • Happy to discuss it with you further. I like your ideas, pretty neat.
  • I apologize for my colleague's overstepping.
  • Please feel free to play with the meta page however you will. I love seeing a fan's ideas ocme together. I just prefer they be a Traveller fan here at the Traveller wiki.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:45, 8 May 2018 (EDT)

Negative divergent technology?[edit]

Is it possible to have divergent technology what is less advanced then "normal" one? Like, the timeline where some kind of technology is functionally equal to less advanced one, invented earlier in more crude form, is result of reverse-engineering by less advanced society, or is result of technological degradation. For example, modern post-apocalypse (like Mad Max) can be from TL 8-4 to 8-2, and would use technologies different from normal TL 4 and TL 6. More sci-fi one is Warhammer 40000 Imperium of Man, what went into degradation and grim darkness roughly after Heresy of Horus. How to reflect the difference of technologies of society those who has just discovered and stated using some kind of technology, and society what was desecrated and resorted to using said lower-level technology due to inability to use or create more advanced ones? --109.62.242.42 12:42, 18 March 2023 (EDT)

Example: Modern Earth[edit]

In most categories, today's Earth sits in Traveller TL8. However, some technologies are actually more advanced:

  • Video Telephone (GTL 7), Flat Screen (GTL 7) - Communications TL9;
    • We already have Text Transcription - Communications TL10. If mobile computers like tablets and smartphones qualify as Personal Global Communications, then we will have Communications TL11. Language Translator technically can be made, stretching this to Communications TL12 - modern translators are fast enough to qualify for "real-time" (but their quality of translation is notoriously lacking).
  • Improved Batteries are either already made or in prototype stage - that depends on your definition of "Improved Batteries"; scientists are working on early fusion reactors, though they are still in progress. Both things qualify for Energy TL9 in some spheres;

Some technologies seem to be backwards in comparison to "spherical TL8 in vacuum":

  • Laser guns (TL-8 Early Laser Pistol, TL-8 Early Laser Rifle, TL-8 Early Laser Carbine) are either not produced yet, or it's in prototype stage. At least, when i was seeing video reports, i never saw laser guns on Ukrainian front - and if they were produced, they definitely would be used if they were manufactured in sufficient numbers. Hoewer, RAM explosives launchers (Rocket Assisted Grenade Auto-Launcher, Rocket Assisted Multi-purpose Grenade Launcher) are already made; Personal Weapons is TL8 for kinetic and missile weapons, but TL7 for energy weapons;
  • Combat-worthy Particle Accelerator is still not created; however, Target Desginated Missiles are already used; Heavy Weapons is TL8 for kinetic and missile weapons, but TL7 for energy weapons;
  • Orbital Settlements are depending on definition - is International Space Station a "orbital settlement", or not - but it's closer to "not"; Early Weather Control is achieved, as we are advanced enough to mess with the weather (results are mostly unpredictable and unfavored, but still); Environment is TL8 for terraforming and environment interactions, but TL7 for settling in somewhere;
  • Artificial Organs and Metabolics are in prototype stage or not yet made; Medical TL7

Therefore, if we use arithmetic mean, we will get TL 7.5 for both Personal and Heavy weapons, 7.5 for Environment, . So, TL will be: 9-8-(9/12)-7-7.5-8-8-8-8-7.5-8-7.5-8 (Energy - Computers/Robotics - Communications - Medical - Environment - Land - Water - Air - Space - Personal Weapons - Personal Armor - Heavy Weapons - Heavy Armor; 13 spheres). The average is TL7,9615384615384615384615384615385 on lowest end and TL 8,1923076923076923076923076923077 on highest end. --95.71.91.65 16:27, 31 March 2024 (EDT)

That system with 13 punkts is very good. In News Media, we have Universal personal video (TL9), and many high-ranking spies have Ubiquitous embedded devices (TL9) even if they don't want it. --95.71.91.65 16:31, 31 March 2024 (EDT)

Retrieved from "http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/index.php?title=Talk:Tech_Level_Comparison_Chart/meta&oldid=799090"