Talk:Tech Level Comparison Chart/meta

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Traveler and GURPS TLs (2018)

When referencing TLs in this section one has to be careful one is using the correct system as past Traveler TL-8 the GURPS TL system is very broad in what it covers. If one looks at the Tech Level Comparison Chart itself it is clear GURPS 4e TL9^-10^ covers Traveler Quality of Life TL 8 though 20, Transportation TL 9 to 21, and Military Technology TL 9 though 21.

So when GURPS Interstellar Wars says 'TL10 represents the “Imperial standard” technology' it is talking about it on its scale not Traveler's. In terms of Traveler TLs, per the conversion chart, this is 10 though 20 in Quality of Life, 12+ in Transportation, and 10+ in military technology.--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:06, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

Since this is the metadata page, when we discuss other game system (like GURPS) we should use the standards of terminology and formatting of that game system. It's not like Traveller is entirely internally consistent about the TL scale.
- Tjoneslo (talk) 12:21, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
I have tried that but Maksim-Smelchak keeps reverting stuff. For example GURPS TLs are TLx while here TL-x is used for Traveler TLs. IMHO using the same format for both Traveler and GURPS TL just confuses people....which defeats the whole purpose of a meta page. In fact, Maksim-Smelchak has mistakenly linked GURPS TLs to the wrong Traveler TLs showing the confusion I am talking about.
If you really look at it, TL11+ in GURPS 4e can be anything ranging from Traveler TL-12 (Ultra-Tech) on up. So GURPS TL11 can be Traveler TL-12, Traveler TL-19, or anything between the two or beyond. And that is without throwing in GURPS' superscience category which is "off" the GURPS TL scale entirely. This is why Azoth-7 can have fast interstellar travel (ie Jump Drives; Traveler TL-9) at TL4^ in GURPS 4e which Traveler TL-2. Turtledove's short story "Road not Taken" gives a rough idea what such a civilization would look like. In terms of "standard" Traveler TLs they would get their clocks cleaned by anybody TL-7 or higher.
- BruceGrubb (talk) 15:20, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
I agree with you. Maksim has a habit of reverting changes he doesn't like and leaving explanations in the summary field, which doesn't leave much room for discussion. I've tried, unsuccessfully obviously, to get him to change. But thank you very much for the updates, I remember the GTL to TTL mappings were always messy.
Ultra-tech2 also introduced an Alternative Technology system (See pUT2:5-10). The GT Core book use the "SafeTech" variant. TL12 / TL13 but none of the nano-tech, AI, robots, and other cool things.
However with the advent of T5, this is beginning to shift a little. Some of the "forbidden" technology is beginning to leak back into Traveller universe. Which makes things even muddier.
- Tjoneslo (talk) 16:45, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
GTIW tries to simply things by focusing on the Interstellar War (2114-2302 CE) period which reduced the amount of Traveler TL it had to try and convert. Nano-tech is mentioned in passing, AI shows up as do robots but they are not self aware.--BruceGrubb (talk) 21:06, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

Bruce, much of your material is GURPS specific. We default to FFE and OTU canon ideas.

  • GURPS 4th Edition Ultra-Tech doesn't belong here in the citations.
  • It definitely belongs at the GURPS wiki.
  • It's not about like or not like, as mentioned by TJonesLo.... It's about the mission parameters that I was given and follow. I like both of your materials very much.
  • GTL to TTL mappings are always messy, especially from canon TL:9 to TL-15.
  • And both the GURPS and T5 Tech Level systems are evolving. As Thomas very aptly puts it, it's getting even muddier.
  • I also get the distinct impression, Bruce, that you have very little familiarity with the T5 tech system.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:52, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

GURPS 4th Edition Ultra-Tech is how we know what devices are what TL in GURPS 4e as GURPS Traveler is not that informative on the matter.

  • The technology section on pages 499-507 of T5.07 is, IMHO, overly complicated.
  • It is not so bad if one limits the comparison to the 4 categories that exist in the two systems (Transportation; Weapons and Armor; Power; Biotechnology/Medicine) and see where the results cluster. Some of the other categories are headache inducing.
  • For example, the social category is, to put it bluntly, a disaster; Kingdoms existed long before the Middle Ages (Kingdom of Israel; Kingdom of Herod the Great, etc) and the Greeks had Democracy long before the 1700s CE.
  • Environs is IMHO borderline useless.
- BruceGrubb (talk) 20:48, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

Bruce, do you own a copy of T5?

  • T5 isn't meant to be all things to all people. It's a frame work and one that's been rather successful for over 40 years.
  • If you really want to change Traveller, I highly recommend you contact Marc Miller. He's very friendly and open-minded.
  • Other than that, Traveller is how he wants it to be and he's the boss.
  • The proper way to change it is to work through the system.
  • The articles here are meant to be in-universe, and I'll be relocating your research to metanotes if you don't do it first.
  • You might just want to link to the GURPS wiki, directly to your articles rather than play around with what is here. It would be more efficient.
  • Personally, I am fascinated with your research and have spoken with D. Pulver before. I'd love to see what you further develop.
  • I have nearly a hundred pages of Tech notes with careful citations over 40 year of Trav materials. I'd love to exchange research with you.
  • Thanks for all that you have added.
  • I also love speaking with folks in person, via voice. I know most of the community this way.You have my E-mail. Let's chat.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:08, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
Core rulebook only. I much prefer the way GTIW is set up. Interestingly even though the T5 book is from 2015 its only mention of GURPS Traveller is that of the classic version which was set in "alternate universe in which Strephon was not assassinated and the MegaTraveller Rebellion did not happen." as a "previous edition". GTIW is not even mentioned even though it was 9 years old when this edition came out.--BruceGrubb (talk) 21:36, 5 May 2018 (EDT)
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