Talk:What Not to Post

Why is it inappropriate to post enough Ship Data to actually use said ship in a game if the ship/vehicle is not otherwise copyrighted. F'rinstance, if a person who's posted the ship to the TML, CT-Striker Yahoogroup, or the Moot Traveller Forums and wanted to reproduce it here for all to use? -Jonathon

It was more to cover published material, as we don't want to loose our charter to publish only "library" information. Second, there are other places where ship designs can be stored, a short article about the design and marked as non-canon (with a reference) is what I think is appropriate. If you want to create your reference here on this site, that is no problem, just don't mark it in the library/publish categories. Actually the Appropriate Articles page indicates that "Approprite local group work, e.g. ship design different from any of the published ones" is good. Dcorrin 13:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, rules for games are exempt of copyright. So you indeed may not post copyrighted deckplans or descriptions of ships, but you may very well post ship data, since game data ARE rules and thus not copyrightable.

Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Copyright protection does not extend to any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in the development, merchandising, or playing of a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles.

Some material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game, or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container, may be registrable.

I tend to think that the literary aspect is what is covered by the copyright.

Web link Reference

Sstefan 07-12-2006

Can we remove the request not to post the UWP with the world writeups. People will expect them as part of the World writeups and you need the books to interpret them properly (or the UWP entry). Tjoneslo 14:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

So really you don't need the books as there is the UWP entry. I included this in the library, as I would suspect with 11,000 worlds, maps would publish just such a summary of worlds, with of course a more complete article if one wanted, so it could be considered an in-game resource too. As has been said elsewhere which UWP are you going to post (Classic, Rebellion (I think there was 4 stages here), New Era, Interstellar wars? If one is posted then all should be, as we are not version specific here. Dcorrin 13:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

My point here was that since many of the library entries we are borrowng from, both officially published and approved fan copies, include the UWP as part of the text, having a global ban on posting UWP seems a little extreme. Perhaps we can add a entry to the style guide discussing UWPs in world writeups and references.

In theory we would need to publish all seven (First Imperium, Interstellar Wars/Second Imperium, Milieu 0, First Survey, Second Survey, Classic era, and TNE) versions. But we don't have all seven UWP sets for all worlds, nor a way of consistently creating them. This was part of Steve Steudtel suggestion to remove (or obscure) the variable parts of the UWP (starport,pop, gov, law, tech) while posting.

The problem with the UWP in relation to historical period also applied to many of the other entries. To take a random example, the Megacorporation Delgado Trading appears in 997, then is gone by the end of the Rebellion. Tjoneslo 13:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The information in the what not to post is not a ban, it is a guidline (see Capital (world) - one I just picked at random), as we don't want to have vast amounts of data that would (a) invalidate published sources (b) best be displayed elsewhere. So if I need to delete entries because Mark, or some other entity indicates that we are overstepping our bounds, I can point to the guideline, and preserve the wiki after resolving the complaint indicating that the data was posted against guidelines.

There are actually 4 steps of the 10 in Hard Times that affect the UWP, one of them even suggests changes the atmosphere code (tainted) adding one more variable to Steve's suggestion, and makes the number of UWP 10 (could be a nice text box for the side of a world entry). Unlike Companies, planets/systems do not go away (well there is one notable exception), or come into existance so it would be valid at all times, plus if the validity of an article is only for a period of time it should be noted in the article. If we had better wiki software then the delgado entry would only appear after 997 and be marked as as defunct organization in 112x. Of course once all the data is here, one could take the XML dump and use it as the data source for a better program. Dcorrin 15:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually I just re-read the article, and it doesn't say to not post UWP, just to not post lists of UWP sector/subsector data.

Limit posting from active companies

This discussion is brought over from Talk:Known Space. In this article I recommened not posting, or severely limit postings from the currently active Traveller publishers (SJGames, QuikLink Interactive, Avenger Enterprises, BITS). This is my copyright rant, and I promise not to do this again elsewhere.

We don't have permission from the responsible parties to post the material to the wiki. As it says at the bottom of every edit page: DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!. Even Marc's very generous licence does not cover this material.

Material published by these companies is under their copyright. I know from discussions that Mr. Dougherty and Mr. Jackson take the most limited view of what other can do with their copyrighted materials. The argument that it may improve sales or increase exposure is irrevelant to them. Mr. Gordon has chosen to borrow Marc's Traveller licence, but is also restricted by the D20 and open game licence.

Posting materials to this wiki places them under the GNU Free Document Licence, meaning it can be copied freely and changed at will. Some people (like Mr. Dougherty and Mr. Jackson), disklike the idea of their material being used in this manner. The fact that we post the material with a source tag indicating another copyright may (repeat: may) avoid the problem.

In theory, we can publish some amount of material under the doctrine of fair use. But the active publishers may not want to have a lengthy discussion with us about how much (or which) materials consititue "fair use". Marc's agreement only lasts until "somehow becomes a burden or problem". The people mostly likely to complain (ie. make themselves a burden or become a problem) are the currently active publishers.

To sum up, in prudence we should avoid aggrivating the active publishers of Traveller by not copying their material without their permission. If we poke the sleeping beasts too much and wake them, bad things will happen. I'm not saying we can't any of this material, but we all must be very aware of how much is being posted.

Tjoneslo 18:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

See my note well below, but I feel the need to respond a second time. I am Martin J Dougherty (note spelling) and somewhat puzzled by the comments below. No attempt has been made to 'track me down' and ask what fair use might be.

Whatever the posted above may think of it, I am of the opinion that allowing my intellectual property to pass into the public domain may in fact be detrimental to sales and, therefore, my capacity to make a living from it.

However, if the poster below actually ever gets around to 'tracking me down' they can ask about fair use. I am more flexible about it than has been asserted on this site.

However, I do object to people telling the world what I think without consulting me - at least I assume that the 'Mr Doughery' referred to is supposed to be me.

I apologize for having gotten your name wrong. I've fixed it above. I, being the person doing the ranting, never followed up on my rant and asked anyone about any material. Specifically I never sent you a note asking your permission to post some or all of the Traveller material you've written. I also apologize for having misstated your views on having people improperly copy your copyright material into this wiki and under the FDL. Tjoneslo 01:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

An apology

It's really too hot, and I'm too tired, to be posting rants.

Given the amount of material I've posted from these sources, my complaining about others posting it is hypocrtical.

Idle speculation causes more damage than actual facts. Therefore I will track down the people responsible in the above companies as ask about posting their material and what they consider "fair use".

Watch this space. Tjoneslo 22:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Steve Jackson Games

According to their online policy, we are not allowed to post any material from any of their books, out of print or not. From their online policy:

Post (or make available for download) forms, charts, tables and text from one of your games?

No; that is a violation of copyright. We understand that it is convenient to gamers if some forms and charts are online, and we have already posted many of them ourselves. You should look at our page for the game you are interested in, to see if perhaps we have already posted the material you want. But we can't give permission to put more and more of each game on the web . . . eventually the whole text would be online, for free, and we couldn't sell any books . . .

Avenger Enterprises

• • Posted by MJ Dougherty - note the spelling.

Some of the statements above are incorrect and misleading; specifically where the article makes claims about what I think. I would recommend actually speaking to me about what what I think before informing the world of my opinion on an open board.

FAIR USE (AVENGER)

Given the history of this topic, I'm quite tempted to simply go with the words that have already been put in my mouth and refuse permission to post anything. Having already been made out to be a jerk and had my (alleged) opinion criticised above, it's tempting to let it stand.

But.

There are obvious and serious issues with allowing parts of our IP to be placed in the public domain. It has been suggested that I am some kind of idiot for not wanting this as giving away Avenger materials instead of selling them is clearly a better business model... but I don't buy that.

So here is what passes for an Avenger fair-use policy.

I am willing to consider any request to post excerpts from Avenger products, each on its own merits. Permission, if given, will be specific and non-negotiable.

If any Avenger materials whatsoever appear in this Wiki without my express and personal permission, I will consider this a deliberate violation of my IP - ie copyright theft. The least I will expect in that case is for all Avenger materials to be removed immeduately and a disclaimer put up in their place to the effect that having abused my goodwill, this Wiki is no longer permitted to post ANY Avenger materials and that reposting same under the GNU license will be illegal as the materials were stolen at the time they appeared here.

To put that in shorter terms:

The only way Avenger materials can be posted here is if you ASK me and I say YES. Permission will be specific.

Abuse of my goodwill or sarcastic comments about my attitude to posting my IP materials into the public domain will result in withdrawal of my cooperation and all permissions.

If that seems harsh, here's a couple of things to consider....

1. It's less harsh than the policy the owners of this Wiki made up for me.

2. It's more than they deserve after the comments made about the stupidity of my policy (which wasnt even mine; it was invented for me).

3. I make my living from Intellectual Property. Giving it away seems counterproductive.

Finally, I am not interested in anyone's opinion of my policy or handling of this matter. I AM offended at the way it has been dealt with and the fact that although a promise was made to 'track me down' it was not delivered on. This shows a total lack of respect; essentially it's not worth asking me what my policy is when you can make one up and then criticise it in a public forum.

So do, please, understand that I am personally VERY offended over this matter - and yet here I am offering to consider the sort of requests I am portrayed as stupidly refusing to entertain.

There will be no more chances - if the operators of this Wiki wish to show contempt for me and for Avenger that's their business, but don't expect cooperation afterwards.