Editing Forum:World page layout format

{{Forumheader|Watercooler}}

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== Current format criticisms (2020)==
# There is a data page that takes loads of effort to populate, yet the templates for the explains don't reference it. Cut and paste is time-heavy and likely to end with partially completed entries out of kilter with the data page.
# There is confusion between "Point in Time" descriptions and "Timeline" descriptions that make the history part of "History and Background" clunky.
# TravellerMap.com is stated as definitive. Could the data be driven from that source?
# The headers in the infobox and the headers in the main document don't correlate neatly.
# Mainworld Map is a link in TravellerMap. For [[Gabrael (world)]] I've added the URL under astrography. Could an image be pulled? Can this be driven by era?
# Header levels don't make much sense as they are. Example shown below.
#* Golden Age Summary
#* Era: New Era
#* Description (Astrography & Planetology)
#** Monostellar System
#** System Data
#** Mainworld Data
#*** Mainworld Size (S)
#*** Mainworld Atmosphere (A)
#*** Mainworld Hydrosphere (H)
#*** Mainworld Geography & Topography (Mostly unused)
#*** Mainworld Map
#** Native Lifeforms (Why only Native...Imported forms are also useful)
#*** Fauna
#*** Flora
#* History & Background (Dossier)
#** Culture (How does this differ from World Culture below?)
#** Imperial High (Landed) Nobility
#** World Starport
#*** Summary
#*** 1105
#*** 1200
#** World Technology Level
#*** 1105
#*** 1200
#** World Government
#*** Summary
#*** 1105
#*** 1200
#** World Law Level
#*** Summary
#*** 1105
#*** 1200
#** World Military
#*** 1105
#*** 1200
#** World Economy
#*** Trade Data
#** World Demographics
#** World Culture (How does this differ from "Culture" above?)
#*** Urbanization
#** Historical Data
#** World Timeline
#* References & Contributors (Sources)
# Keeping the "Description" and "History and Background" headings is making the structure difficult to follow. Say what they are!
# The "UWP Explain" template doesn't follow this format or fit naturally within it. Where a planet has changing demographics, etc. over time UWP explain actually makes a coherent story harder to describe as the physical and societal parts are chunked together.
## Taking [[Ikhaba (world)]] as a complex example, this changes hands several times between [[Vargr]], {{Imperial}} and [[Megacorporation]] with differing influences at different periods. The Planetology stays constant; the demographics change. (n.b. Presumably, the planetology could change if a planet is seriously nuked as happens between 1130 and 1201 (or 1201 and 1900) in many descriptions - although TravellerMap doesn't show this much if at all.)

[[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 02:42, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

: Answers in no specific order: [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 08:13, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

: The data page for the world articles is generated and updated by an automated external process, the PyRoute program, as part of the Trade map generation. Three were only four sectors where the data was completely uploaded: Dagudashaag, Deneb, Knoellighz, and Spinward Marches. All of the other world articles should be using the [[Template:UWP]], which is a manual, but simpler, update process. For the sectors where there is a data page the updates are done automatically. The request has been please don't update the data pages because there is an automated, if irregularly and infrequently run, process to update them. Because of the manner of the automated process, it works best on full sectors. 
:: Sorry - didn't realise data pages were automated - There is no indicator to warn an editor of this fact on the page. I've populated some by hand for [[Khouth Subsector]] and [[Aegaek Subsector]]. [[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 11:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

: The JumpMap provided by TravellerMap is a specific service provided by the site. And there are templates to make that happen (See [[Template:JumpMap]] for the core of this process). It should be possible to do this for the world map. Please keep in mind the World Map is a different site from the Traveller Map site, and it is entirely possible the wiki linking to the site to pull images may cause the site to overload. 
::The links for the map are long and complex. I suspect that formatting it isn't simple and would require duplicating what the TravellerMap uses some how. Cutting and pasting the URL works OK for now - but may be an issue if the site closes. [[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 11:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

: [[Manual of Style/world]] has the current agreed upon layout template for the world articles. I take your suggestion above as a recommendation to update the template(s) in the manual of style. I agree the layout of the infobox and headers don't align, they were developed separately to serve different organization needs.
:: Should that be reviewed? [[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 11:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT) 

:::: I was trying to do a planet page and I agree it puts a lot of empty space in there (is there a way to omit fields no data is available for?) and (for people that are new and didn't write it) I looked at what was in the layout (basic and advanced) and I found a lot of things weren't obvious to me so I had to go and find a partly filled example to see where some things ought to be placed. I have three issues I'd like to help do something about:
:::: * The layout is a text layout that I only could figure to include by cut and paste into a new world page... have I missed a way to get it there by reference? Could it be a simple template and use {{subst:world_layout_template_advanced}} or some such? If I could just get that page over without the cut and paste just by a reference, it'd cut one step from the process.
::::: The <nowiki>{{subst}}</nowiki> pattern works, but was so obscure to the other people we tried to explain that to, they never got it. So the original layouts were all put together assuming people were using cut/paste to get the layout into the new page. I can separate the world page layouts into two pages to make that work. The counter-challenge is the "subst" pages won't include as much documentation. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 17:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

:::: * you have shown the data structure in the UWP Template and the Layout, but not all fields are obvious as to what goes there - a *commented* version that described the data expected and format required would help with that... for instance, there is a <nowiki>uc</nowiki> field that I found out by looking at an example that had data is supposed to hold the UWP (A672031-C for Langemarck). I have NO idea what uc stands for and I would NOT have expected to put it there and for the life of me still can't figure out what uc stands for... so that tells me comments would help new folks and so would a complete example that uses all the fields even if it is not linked back to a TravellerMap sytem
::::: [[Template:UWP]] has the documentation, in detail, for all the fields in the template. This is a general rule. The layout pages contain enough to get started, but if you have questions about the parameters to a template, please look at the template page. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 17:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

:::: * While we talk about Milieus: Chuck Kallenbach released, on his now defunct website, an update to Vanguard Reaches and The Beyond (the Paranoia Press published products) that could be called 'a complete incompatible rewriting'. Zhodani base uses that data. Traveller Map uses the published paper versions PP put out, not what Chuck later wanted people to use. And I think DGP may have overwritten that (and not sure, maybe MgT has). So... how do we handle multiple cuts at something in the same era? I think one of the problems is you are trying to define an era as a point in time where there is a single representation of a sector and that is not an entirely accurate premise. Similarly, a 'version of Traveller' won't cut it.
::::: Beyond and Vanguard Reaches sectors are the really interesting challenge because there are at least 5 versions (the original Paranoia Press publication, the Chuck Kallenbach update, The DGP version, a fan based update published in HIWG, and the Geir Lanesskog updates). The wiki does not have a clean way separating them, as it wasn't considered. 17:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

:::: * I like TravellerMap but it introduces and outside dependency. You guys and Joshua have an awesome synergy, but if his site goes, there's a lot that goes with it. And if he's got data that shows one particular take, but it is not the most current or if we want to show all of the data for all of the versions and there is no era for that data, what do we do? That's a problem. 
::::: TravellerMap does include the option for "Far Away" sectors. These are a set of data for a sector or four to be included from datasets not part of the "reviewed canon" data to be kept for historical purposes. I know Joshua has taken several fan based update for work to be included as long as it meets standards. 
::::: The complete source code and current data sets are available on GitHub. If Joshua can no longer manage the site (for whatever reason), there are detailed directions for someone else to set it up and manage it. So, unlike some sites which have vanished recently, there is a plan for keeping Traveller Map functioning. 

:::: I wanted to work the VR and Beyond, but if that work might be wiped by a sector update due to Chuck's complete rewrite... to the point of having different planet names, UWPs, etc.... not sure I should be bothering right now. [[User:Kaladorn|Kaladorn]] ([[User talk:Kaladorn|talk]]) 16:18, 30 August 2020 (EDT)
::::: I send you an email note about this regarding Geir Lanesskog work on these sectors. I know he came by and asked the same kinds of questions about how to manage different data-sets both here and in Traveller Map. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 17:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

: One of the biggest objections to the established detailed layout templates is the content of the article should drive the layout of the article, not force content into a pre-established layout. The content is what we are be presenting, so have the headers describe and organize the information into useful and easy to find. 
:: Nothing worse than lots of sections with no data. Especially obvious in the Fleet pages as 90% of the fleets have only ever appeared as a number in one publication for the date [[1116]] - and that publication duplicates fleet numbers horribly, and gets miss-quoted in other publications for other dates! [[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 11:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

: How to organize articles according to era or timeline is a discussion which has been going on since the beginning of the wiki. The challenge has been not every article has information for each era. So what happens if there is no information for a given era?
::n.b. The Manual of Style/world doesn't give any guidance on how to cope with multiple eras. [[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 11:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)

== World Page Formats (2018) ==
Ensign Phillips, 
I moved this to it's own topic because I felt it needed a separate discussion. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 07:24, 18 November 2018 (EST)

----
I just completed a revision of the detailed planetary template. The example of this new template may be found at [[Manyana (world)|Manyana]] ([[Daibei Sector]], [[Iingar Subsector]] 2901). This revision is an attempt to bring the template into closer alignment with the Traveller Map format which the Wiki links to as well as eliminate duplicate entries. I've also attempted to "drill down" the data stream from the highest level (Astrographical) down through system level (Star Type and Planetary) and finally both primary and supplemental Mainworld data.

I moved the UWP section to a more prominent placement above the Mainworld sections as this data is, I feel, of primary interest to the more casual viewer of the Wiki.

As a final step I tidied up, as necessary combined and alphabetized the data sections to hopefully present a more streamlined table of contents section.

I welcome comments as always and hope this missive finds each of you both hail and hearty. Until next we speak... please take care.

[[User:Ensign Phillips|Ensign Phillips]] ([[User talk:Ensign Phillips|talk]]) 03:40, 18 November 2018 (EST)

----
I've always been skeptical of alphabetizing sections. My preference is for putting sections in order of importance. Which, of course, leads to discussions of what the order of importance. I make the following suggestions: 

The Primary Mainworld Data section is missing a few UWP values, which given that we've not defined templates for them is not surprising. 

From the Supplemental Mainworld Data, move the Demographics and Lifeforms section under the Primary Mainworld under Population (one of the UWP missing). 

Move the the Language/s (I also dislike this way of writing singular/plural, please just use "languages"), Military, and Urbanization under the World Culture section. 

Move the Geography & Topography, and Map under the Primary Mainworld Data / Size.  

This leaves the Background, Historical & Miscellaneous Data and World Timeline. These should be their own "Planetary history" top level section. 

: [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 07:24, 18 November 2018 (EST)

---- 
I am open to experimentation with the layouts.
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 09:19, 18 November 2018 (EST)
@@ Line 62: / Line 62: @@
 : The data page for the world articles is generated and updated by an automated external process, the PyRoute program, as part of the Trade map generation. Three were only four sectors where the data was completely uploaded: Dagudashaag, Deneb, Knoellighz, and Spinward Marches. All of the other world articles should be using the [[Template:UWP]], which is a manual, but simpler, update process. For the sectors where there is a data page the updates are done automatically. The request has been please don't update the data pages because there is an automated, if irregularly and infrequently run, process to update them. Because of the manner of the automated process, it works best on full sectors.
 :: Sorry - didn't realise data pages were automated - There is no indicator to warn an editor of this fact on the page. I've populated some by hand for [[Khouth Subsector]] and [[Aegaek Subsector]]. [[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 11:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
-::: [[Traveller:Subpages#World_subpages]] - I guess I didn't make this apparent enough. I'll look into adding a comment to the top of the pages. But both of those wouldn't have helped for your layout. If there are additional sectors that should be converted, please make a suggestion. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 19:44, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
 : The JumpMap provided by TravellerMap is a specific service provided by the site. And there are templates to make that happen (See [[Template:JumpMap]] for the core of this process). It should be possible to do this for the world map. Please keep in mind the World Map is a different site from the Traveller Map site, and it is entirely possible the wiki linking to the site to pull images may cause the site to overload.
 ::The links for the map are long and complex. I suspect that formatting it isn't simple and would require duplicating what the TravellerMap uses some how. Cutting and pasting the URL works OK for now - but may be an issue if the site closes. [[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 11:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
-::: The other option is to download the image file and then upload it into the wiki. This would get around the site closing issue. It's just three manual steps that's a pain however.
-::: I have spoken with the author of that page, and most or all of the site is client side javascript. That would make it possible, though difficult, to simply incorporate the whole site into the wiki. The idea behind the Widgets in the wiki is to have exactly this kind of extension. It just requires some reworking and adapting of the original code. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 19:44, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
 : [[Manual of Style/world]] has the current agreed upon layout template for the world articles. I take your suggestion above as a recommendation to update the template(s) in the manual of style. I agree the layout of the infobox and headers don't align, they were developed separately to serve different organization needs.
 :: Should that be reviewed? [[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 11:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
-::: If you have suggestions for improvement I would love to see them. We can either use the talk page there or create a new topic here to separate the discussions. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 19:44, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
 :::: I was trying to do a planet page and I agree it puts a lot of empty space in there (is there a way to omit fields no data is available for?) and (for people that are new and didn't write it) I looked at what was in the layout (basic and advanced) and I found a lot of things weren't obvious to me so I had to go and find a partly filled example to see where some things ought to be placed. I have three issues I'd like to help do something about:
@@ Line 92: / Line 88: @@
 : One of the biggest objections to the established detailed layout templates is the content of the article should drive the layout of the article, not force content into a pre-established layout. The content is what we are be presenting, so have the headers describe and organize the information into useful and easy to find.
 :: Nothing worse than lots of sections with no data. Especially obvious in the Fleet pages as 90% of the fleets have only ever appeared as a number in one publication for the date [[1116]] - and that publication duplicates fleet numbers horribly, and gets miss-quoted in other publications for other dates! [[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 11:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
-::: This is true of a great many articles that could be in the wiki. Still trying to find a standard for these things. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 19:44, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
 : How to organize articles according to era or timeline is a discussion which has been going on since the beginning of the wiki. The challenge has been not every article has information for each era. So what happens if there is no information for a given era?
 ::n.b. The Manual of Style/world doesn't give any guidance on how to cope with multiple eras. [[User:BackworldTraveller|BackworldTraveller]] ([[User talk:BackworldTraveller|talk]]) 11:34, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
-::: Nothing in the Manual of Style has a definitive description of how to cope with multiple eras. My preference is to keep all the information for each era together in one section, rather than splitting in to different parts. Even the Physical parts of the UWP may change over time. [[Dinom (world)]] is one example of this. The effects of the [[Black War]] or the [[Wave]] are other ones. So the layout would look more like this:
-* History & Background
-** Era: Milieu 1116
-*** World Summary UWP
-** Era: Rebelllion
-*** World Summary UWP
-** Era: New Era
-*** World Summary UWP
-::: Other suggestions have been to wrap the later era's in the [[Template:Hidden]] to avoid spoilers, though how you spoil 30 year old books at this point escapes me. The other option was to move the other era's to subpages, as if they are their own independent thing. But I can see why to do it the way you suggest. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 19:44, 27 August 2020 (EDT)
 == World Page Formats (2018) ==