Editing Forum:T5 Starship Mission Codes

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This is the list of the ship mission codes from the T5.10 book (book 2, p. 68), but organized differently. The purpose of this is to take another attempt to reconcile the wiki [[Ship Classification]] (and [[Starship-Nav-Bar-Two-2019CE]]) with the T5.10 mission codes. This is a request to make sure the T5.10 codes are propagated forward. 

The T5 mission taxonomy is included where it clarifies the mission code.

* Nomenclature. One productive pattern appears to be <secondary Code 1> <secondary Code 2> <mission Code 3>, where Code 1 + Code 3 represents a subtype, and Code 1 + Code 2 + Code 3 the sub-subtype.  '''Example''': Boat > System Boat > System ''Defense'' Boat.  

* BCS ships.  Since all capital ships are principal military vessels, they are commonly talked about via their secondary codes only, omitting the ubiquitous "Cruiser" type (this potentially holds for Frigate BCS as well, assuming they exist).  Thus most capital ships are Battle Cruisers.  They are further divided into subcategories: Battle Beam Cruisers, Battle Strike Cruisers, and so on.

* Mission Modifiers. Rob suggests that the mission modifiers represent an "open class", and can be freely added to satisfy ships that don't have T5 codes.  See the secondary modifier table for suggestions.

== Mission Codes ==

{| class="wikitable" 
!colspan="8"| Letter Code Comparison
|-
! C
! [[CT]] <br> [[GDW]]
! [[CT]] [[High Guard]] <br> [[GDW]]
! [[T5|T5.10]] <br> [[MWM]]
! Wiki-1 <br> Jmattera
! Wiki-2 <br> MSmelchak
! Rob
! Remarks
|-
| A
| [[Free Trader]]
| [[Merchant]]
| [[Free Trader]]<br/>
AA Armored Trader ASC-3p12<br/>
LXA Long-Range Express Trader IISSp15
| [[Trader]]
| A-class [[Merchant Vessel]]s ([[Tramp]]s - [[Cargo]] & Low-volume [[Passenger]]s) 
* Military Auxiliaries now go to Q-class
* Traders or Tramps remain
* All manner of traders: Free, Deep, Far, etc.
| -
| Consistent.
|-
| B
| -
| [[Battleship]]; [[Boat]]
| (Naval, Defensive) Boat <br>
(Private) Beagle<br/>
SB System Boat<br/>
SAB System Attack Boat<br/>
SDB System Defense Boat (S09p25; SMCp35; T5B2p34)
| [[Battleship]]
| B-class [[Battleship]]s
* [[Monitor]]s included
* [[Dreadnought]]s included
| * Monitors: Type N.
| Consistent when used as a T5 Modifier.
|-
| C
| [[Cruiser]]
| [[Cruiser]]; [[Carrier]]
| (Naval, Principal) Cruiser <br/>
AC Armored Cruiser S09p30<br/>
BC Battle Cruiser AOTI 28, 38<br/>
FC Frontier Cruiser S09p31; G03<br/>
LC Light Cruiser S09p28<br/>
SC Scout Cruiser S09p29; G03<br/>
KC Strike Cruiser<br/>
BB(C) Beam Battle Cruiser AOTI 9, 18, 62-63, 84, 96-99<br/>
BBF(C) Beam Battle Flag Cruiser AOTI 67, 250<br/>
BF(C) Battle Flag Cruiser AOTI 52, 56<br/>
BK(C) Battle Strike Cruiser AOTI 65, 189-190, 200-201, 206, 211 (Tigress)<br/>
BKF(C) Battle Strike Flag Cruiser AOTI 29, 34, 100<br/>
BMF(C) Battle Missile Flag Cruiser AOTI 116-117, 119-120<br/>
BR(G) Battle Rider Frigate SMCp35<br/>
CB(C) Carrier Battle Cruiser SMCp35
| [[Cruiser]]
| C-class [[Cruiser]]s
* No need to change. Weight tonnage cruisers remain
* Corvettes go to E-class
* Small (speed) Cruisers go to E-class
| * Corvettes: Type E
| Consistent.
|-
| D
| [[Destroyer]]
| [[Destroyer]]
| (Naval) Defender 
| [[Defender]] ([[SDB]])
| D-class [[Destroyer]]s
* Anything not a destroyer goes to E-class
* Defenders and SDBs go to H-class
| * SDBs: Type B
| HG and T5 differ.
|-
| E
| [[Escort]]
| [[Escort]]
| (Naval) Corvette; Escort<br><br>
| [[Corvette]], [[Escort]]<br/>
CE Close Escort<br/>
FE Fleet Escort S07p18<br/>
GE Gunned Escort S07p35, T5B2p34<br/>
AF(E) Auxiliary Fast Escort AOTI 44, 57, 60, 65, 67
| E-class [[Escort]]s
* Includes all manner of tiny vessels
* Brigs, Corvettes, FACs, Sloops, etc. 
* Patrol ships here if military and Imperial Navy. Otherwise to H-class.
| * Patrol ships: Type P
| Consistent.
|-
| F
| -
| [[Frigate]], [[Fighter]]
| (Commerce, Scheduled) Freighter
| [[Fighter]], [[Freighter]], [[Frigate]]
| F-class [[Fighter]]s
* Only fighters now
* Fighters = Dedicated combatant smallcraft (...mostly)
* Fighters bigger than 100 tons go to E-class or elsewhere
* Non-combat-dedicated utility smallcraft go to U-class
* Frigates go to E-class
* Freighters go to A, M, R, or T-class
| * Fighters: Type QF
* Larger fighters: Type B 
* Frigates: Type G
| HG and T5 differ.
|-
| G
| -
| Gig; Refinery
| (Naval, Major) Frigate<br/>
PG Patrol Frigate IISSp18; T5B2p46-47
| [[Industrial Vessel]], [[Frigate]]
| G-class [[Industrial Vessel]]s (Commercial)
* Frigates and Corvettes go to E-class
* Refinery
* Ag / Farming
* Factory Ships
* Refinery ships
* Largecraft tug
| * Corvettes: Type E.
* Tugs: Type T.
* Refinery: 2ry modifier
* Farming: 2ry modifier
* Factory: 2ry modifier
| Probably OK to use T5.
|-
| H
| -
| -
| (Naval, Siege) Ortillery
| [[Ortillery Ship]], [[Security Vessel]]
| H-class [[Security Vessel]]s
* [[Defender]]s ([[SDB]]s)
* [[Hunter Vessel]]s remain
* [[Sentinel]]s
* [[Patrol Ship]]s here unless dedicated Imperial Navy escorts at E-class
* [[Quarantine Ship]]s here or in special missions at Z-class
* [[Ortillery Ship]]s (Siege) go to O-class
* [[Tanker]]s go to T-class
| * SDBs: Type SDB
* Defenders: Type D 
* Sentinels: Type S
* Patrol: Type P
* Quarantine: use the 'Q' modifier
* Tankers: Type T
* Hunter vessels: 2ry modifier 'H'
| Conflict.
|-
| I
| -
| [[Intruder Vessel]]
| -
| [[Assault Transport]], [[Intruder Vessel]]
| I-class [[Combat Transport]]s
* Includes troop transports, assault landers, etc,
|
| 
|-
| J
| - 
| [[Intruder Vessel]]
| (Private, Exploration) Prospector
| [[Prospector]], [[Seeker]]
| J-class [[Prospector Vessel]]s
* Prospectors and seekers remain
* Intruders go to I-class
| -
| HG and T5 differ.
|-
| K
| [[Safari Ship]]
| Pinnace (small craft)
| (Commerce, Charter) Safari, Expedition
| [[Expedition Ship]], [[Safari Ship]]
| K-class [[Expedition Ship]]s
* [[Colony Ship]]s
* [[Exploration Vessel]]s
* [[Safari Ship]]s 
* Beagles
* Couriers go to X-class or S-class if they are S/Cs
| * Beagles: Type B
* Couriers: Type S
* Colony ships: use Type CT "Colony Transport"
| Consistent.
|-
| L
| [[Lab Ship]]
| [[Corvette]], [[Lab Ship]]
| (Private, Exploration) Lab
| [[Lab Ship]]
| * [[Lab Ship]]s
* No change whatsoever
| -
| Consistent.
|-
| M
| [[Subsidized Liner]]
| [[Merchant]] 
| (Commerce, Scheduled) Liner<br/>
FM Long Liner TTAp138
| [[Liner]]
| M-class [[Merchant Vessel]]s ([[Freighter]]s - [[Bulk Freight]]) 
* No changes although most named liners go to R-class
| -
| Consistent (HG, MT are in error)
|-
| N
| -
| -
| (Naval, Principal) Monitor<br><br>
(Private) Survey, Medical
| [[Hospital Ship]]
| * Ferries go to Q-class or U-class 
| * Ferries: Type T
* The Donosev goes here
| Conflict.
|-
| O
| -
| [[Ordnance Vessel]]
| -
| [[Ortillery Vessel]]
| O-class [[Ortillery Vessel]]s
* Bombardment Ship
* Siege Engine
* etc.
* Military Ordinance vessels go to Q-class
| -
| Conflict.
|-
| P
| [[Corsair]]
| [[Planetoid Vessel]]
| (Naval, Independent) Corsair, Marauder<br><br>
(Private) Picket, Patrol, Privateer
| [[Corsair Vessel]], [[Patrol Ship]], [[Fighter]]
| P-class [[Corsair Vessel]]s
* Fighters all go to F-class
* Planetoids get spread around by their role and function (P is a secondary modifier)
* Raiders become PR
* Q-ships become PQ
* Marauders
* Privateers
| * Planetoid is a 2ry modifier
* Raiders: Type R
* Q-ships: 2ry modifier Q (Decoy)
| HG and T5 differ.
|-
| Q
| -
| [[Auxiliary]]
| -
| [[Auxiliary]], [[Decoy]]
| Q-class [[Military Auxiliary]]/s
* Decoys
* Military Speciality
* All manner of military auxiliaries
* Hospital remain at N-class
* Q-ships go to P-class
| * Hospitals: Type N
* Auxiliaries: Type E, T, or W
* Q-ships: 2ry modifier Q (Decoy)
| Consistent when used as a T5 Modifier.
|-
| R
| [[Subsidized Merchant]]
| [[Liner]]
| (Naval, Independent) Raider<br>
(Commerce, Scheduled) Merchant<br/>
AR Armored Commerce Raider ASC-1p8
| [[Merchant Vessel]], [[Raider Vessel]]
| R-class [[Merchant Vessel]]s ([[Liner]]s - Medium [[Cargo]] & Medium-volume [[Passenger]]s) 
* R now a dedicated merchant code
* Raiders go to PR
* Battle riders now classified by role or size (...becomes a secondary modifier)
| * Riders: 2ry modifier "R", e.g. "BRG" Battle ''Rider'' Frigate.
| Consistent (HG, MT are in error).
|-
| S
| [[Scout Vessel]] 
| [[Scout Vessel]], Station
| (Naval) Sentinel<br>
(Private) Scout, Courier, Messenger
| [[Scout Vessel]]
| S-class [[Scout Vessel]]s
* Sieges go to O-class
* Includes all sorts of other Scout vessels, but not explorers, which go to K-class expeditions 
| * Sieges: Type H
* Exploration vessels: Type B, J, L, N, S
| Consistent.
|-
| T
| [[Patrol Cruiser]]
| [[Tanker]], [[Tender]]
| (Naval, Siege) Assault <br>(Naval, Auxiliary) Transport, Tender<br/>
(Commerce) Transport<br/>
CT Colony Transport<br/>
JT Interface Transport (Ferry)<br/>
LCT Light Carrier Assault IISSp27
| [[Tanker]]s & [[Transport]]s
| T-class [[Tanker]]s & [[Transport]]s (Bulk Trade Freight)
* T-class are now dedicated transports and tankers
* Tenders go to V-class or elsewhere depending on role
* Patrol ships go to E-class if escorts and H-class if system defenders or security vessels 
* Tugs go to G-class, Q-class, or U-class depending on size and user.
| * Patrol ships: Type P 
* Ferries go here.
| Consistent.
|-
| U
| -
| -
| (Commerce, Unscheduled) Packet
| [[Utility Craft]]
| U-class [[Utility Vessel]]s & [[Utility Craft]]
* Packets ships go to X-class
* Ferries
* Smallcraft tug
* Jump Ship Jump cabooses, jump ferries that are not tenders
* Tugs remain or go to Q-class if military-dedicated
* Includes U-class smallcraft except fighters, which are F-class
| * Ferries: Type T
* Tugs: Type T 
* Small craft: Type Q.
| Conflict.
|-
| V
| -
| -
| (Naval, Special) Destroyer
EV Escort Destroyer S09p14,15
| [[Carrier]]
| V-class [[Subcraft Carrier]]s
* [[Carrier]]s 
* [[Tender]]s
* Some tenders go to X-class (Xboat tenders) or T-class if commercial
* Other possibilities are available although rare
| * Tenders: Type T
* Carriers: 2ry modifier "C"
| Conflict.
|-
| W
| -
| [[Barge]]
| (Naval, Auxiliary) Barge
| [[Space Station]], [[Barge]]
| W-class [[Space Station]]s & [[Satellite]]s & [[Barge]]s ([[System Craft]] - Non-Interstellar)
* Includes little to no drive and no mission beyond the star system
* Might include far system craft or stations
| -
| Consistent.
|-
| X
| [[Express Ship]]
| [[Express Ship]]
| (Private, Information) Express
| [[Communication Vessel]], [[Tender]]
| X-class [[Communication Vessel]]s
* X-boats
* X-boat tenders
* Packets
* Dedicated non-military couriers
* Alternate mail ships
* Relay Ships
* etc. 
| -
| Consistent.
|-
| Y
| [[Yacht]]
| [[Yacht]]
| (Commerce, Charter) Yacht
| [[Yacht]]
| Y-class [[Yacht]]s ([[Private Craft]])
* All manner of privately owned craft
* Including commuter or passenger smallcraft if system-dedicated and not elsewhere 
| -
| Consistent.
|-
| Z
| -
| Special
| -
| [[Unclassified Ship]], [[Experimental Craft]]
| Z class [[Special Mission Ship]]s
* [[Unclassified Ship]]s 
* [[Experimental Craft]]
* Special missions of all types that don't fit elsewhere
* Hybrid experimental craft
| -
| Consistent.
|}

== BCS Codes ==

BCS codes follow an informal nomenclature.  Commonly, they are only referred to by their '''secondary codes''', with the main code omitted.  Presumably the main code is known so well or so common that it's assumed by the source. 

{| class="wikitable sortable" 
!colspan="8"| BCS Codes
|-
! Code
! [[CT]] <br> [[GDW]]
! [[CT]] [[High Guard]] <br> [[GDW]]
! [[AOTI]] <br> [[MWM]]
! Reference
! Remarks
|-
| AF (AFE)
| -
| -
| Auxiliary Fast Corvette 
| AOTI 44, 57, 60, 65, 67
| "Corvette" (E) is assumed. 
|-
| BB (BBC or BBG)
| Battleship
| Battleship
| Beam Battle Cruiser<br/>Beam Battle Frigate
| AOTI 9, 18, 62-63, 84, 96-99
| "Cruiser" (C) or (less common) Frigate (G) is assumed.
|-
| BBF (BBFC)
| -
| -
| Beam Battle Flag Cruiser
| AOTI 67, 250
| "Cruiser" (C) is assumed
|-
| BF (BFC)
| -
| -
| Battle Flag Cruiser
| AOTI 52, 56
| "Cruiser" (C) is assumed
|-
| BK (BKC)
| -
| -
| Battle Strike Cruiser
| AOTI 65, 189-190, 200-201, 206, 211
| This is a Tigress
|-
| BKF (BKFC)
| -
| -
| Battle Strike Flag Cruiser
| AOTI 29, 34, 100
| "Cruiser" (C) is assumed
|-
| BMF (BMFC)
| -
| -
| Battle Missile Flag Cruiser
| AOTI 116-117, 119-120
| "Cruiser" (C) is assumed
|-
| BR (BRG or BRB)
|
| [[Battle Rider]]
| Battle Rider Frigate<br/>Battle Rider Boat
| SMCp35
| "Frigate"/"Boat" assumed
|-
| CB (CBC)
|
| Carrier Battle Cruiser
|
| SMCp35
| "Carrier" (C) is assumed
|}

= Wiki-2 Amendment Discussion Starters =
I see that a lot of work went into the Wiki-2 column, so I want to start talking over the decisions made there.
In particular, I want to see how many of these are intractable, and how Wiki-2 sifted through the ship types
that "fall through the cracks". [[User:Rje|Rje]] ([[User talk:Rje|talk]]) 17:36, 17 March 2022 (EDT)

:: T5 is definitely ACS-focused, and AOTI sure makes it look like the two are different. But maybe we can work it out. [[User:Rje|Rje]] ([[User talk:Rje|talk]]) 00:18, 19 March 2022 (EDT)

:: I figured it out.  The ships in AOTI are talked about commonly by their secondary modifiers only: the main code is elided.  Formally, however, it is part of the ship's code. [[User:Rje|Rje]] ([[User talk:Rje|talk]]) 00:27, 19 March 2022 (EDT)


== Rob's Preferences ==
Since I've decided that the mission code is not exclusive to its table taxonomy, I prefer to simply present the bare codes, and allow an open class of secondary modifier codes (a) to clarify, and (b) to allow for "edge" ship types we haven't thought up.

{| width = "100%" 
|-
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type A|A]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type B|B]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type C|C]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type D|D]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type E|E]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type F|F]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type G|G]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type H|H]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type J|J]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type K|K]]
|-
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Trader]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Beagle]], [[Boat]] 
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Cruiser]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Defender]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Escort]], [[Corvette]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Freighter]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Frigate]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Ortillery]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Prospector]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Safari]]
|}
{| width = "100%" 
|-
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type L|L]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type M|M]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type N|N]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type P|P]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type R|R]]
|-
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Lab]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Liner]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Medical]], [[Monitor]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Corsair]], [[Marauder]], [[Picket]], [[Patrol]], [[Privateer]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Merchant]], [[Raider]]
|}
{| width = "100%" 
|-
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type S|S]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type T|T]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type U|U]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type V|V]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type W|W]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type X|X]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type Y|Y]]
! bgcolor= "coffee" | [[Type Z|Z]]
|-
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Scout]], [[Courier]], [[Messenger]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Assault]], [[Transport]], [[Tender]], [[Tug]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Packet]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Destroyer]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Barge]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Express]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Yacht]]
| bgcolor= "beige" align="center" | [[Unclassified]]
|-
|}

[[User:Rje|Rje]] ([[User talk:Rje|talk]]) 23:17, 20 March 2022 (EDT)

== Modifier Codes ==

{| class="wikitable sortable" 
!colspan="8"| Qualifier/Modifier Code Comparison
|-
! Code
! [[CT]]
! [[CT]] [[High Guard]]
! [[T5|T5.10]]
! Remarks
|-
| A
| -
| Armored 
| Alternate, Improved, Armored, Attack
|
|-
| B
| Battle
| Battle; Boat
| Boat, Bulk, Battle, Big
|
|-
| C
| Close
| Cruiser; Close
| Close, Carrier, Comms
! bgcolor="beige" | * Rob suggests "Colony" be included 
|-
| D
| -
| Destroyer
| Defense, Interceptor
| Conflict - Use Mission Code V for Destroyer
|-
| E
| Escort
| Escort
| Escort, Essential, Electronic Warfare
|
|-
| F
| -
| Fast; Fleet
| Fast, Fat, Frontier, Far, Flag, Free
! bgcolor="beige" | * Rob suggests "Factory" and "Farming" be included
|-
| G
| -
| Gunned
| Gunned, Upgunned, Gas
|
|- 
| H
| -
| Heavy
| Fuel, Tanker, Hydrogen
! bgcolor="beige" | * Rob suggests "Heavy" and "Hunter" be included
|-
| J
| -
| -
| Survey, Prospector, Interface, Intruder
|
|-
| K
| -
| -
| Subsidized, Fast, Diplomatic
! bgcolor="beige" | * AOTI suggests "Strike" be included
|-
| L
| -
| Leader; Light
| LR, Lifeboat, Exploratory, Light
|
|-
| M
| -
| Missile
| Military, Militia, Mercenary, Motivator, Tug
! bgcolor="beige" | * AOTI suggests "Missile" be included
|-
| N
| -
| Nonstandard
| Naval, Nuclear, Fleet
! bgcolor="beige" | * Rob suggests "Nonstandard" be included
|-
| P
| -
| Provincial
| Patrol, Plus, Passenger, Mercenary
! bgcolor="beige" | * Rob suggests "Provincial" be included
|-
| Q
| -
| Decoy
| Disguised, Decoy, Quarantine, Mother
|
|-
| R
| -
| Raider
| Recon, Rescue, Raider
! bgcolor="beige" | * Rob suggests "Refinery" be included
|-
| S
| -
| Strike
| Slow, System, Special, Luxury, Small
|
|-
| T
| Transport
| Troop; Transport
| Tramp, Tender, Transport
|
|-
| U
| -
| Unpowered
| Unarmed, Hulk, De-activated, Inop
|
|-
| V
| -
| Vehicle
| Vehicle Carrier, Drone, Remote
|
|-
| W
| -
| -
| Unpowered, Non-jump
|
|-
| X
| -
| -
| Experimental, Special, Express
|
|-
| Y
| -
| Shuttle; Cutter
| Hull, Subhull, Pod, Rider, Modular
|
|-
| Z
| -
| Experimental
| Unassigned
|
|}
@@ Line 491: / Line 491: @@
 |}
-== Wiki-1 Discussion ==
+= Wiki-2 Amendment Discussion Starters =
-[[Ship Mission Code/updates]] is the lengthy discussion for the first set of Wiki specific mission codes. These were developed within the wiki to capture the missing and forgotten types from the CT and MT ship mission codes. These were produced in 2015 prior to the T5.10 rules. For any new updates, the linked page could be referenced to make sure we're covering everything. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 19:01, 17 March 2022 (EDT)
-== Wiki-2 Amendment Discussion Starters ==
 I see that a lot of work went into the Wiki-2 column, so I want to start talking over the decisions made there.
+In particular, I want to see how many of these are intractable, and how Wiki-2 sifted through the ship types
-In particular, I want to see how many of these are intractable, and how Wiki-2 sifted through the ship types that "fall through the cracks". [[User:Rje|Rje]] ([[User talk:Rje|talk]]) 17:36, 17 March 2022 (EDT)
+that "fall through the cracks". [[User:Rje|Rje]] ([[User talk:Rje|talk]]) 17:36, 17 March 2022 (EDT)
-: One of the concerns around the T5.10 mission codes is they seem to be focused on the ACS class of small ships, and there may be a different codes for the BCS or larger classes. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 19:01, 17 March 2022 (EDT)
 :: T5 is definitely ACS-focused, and AOTI sure makes it look like the two are different. But maybe we can work it out. [[User:Rje|Rje]] ([[User talk:Rje|talk]]) 00:18, 19 March 2022 (EDT)