Forum:Nobility template on every world page

Forums: Index > Watercooler > Nobility template on every world page

This was copied from Talk:Akigir (world) to ensure a wider public discussion.

Thomas, the nobility box is duplicated by what you do (Advanced URL & data data statistics for T5SS), but it is important for Wayne and others so they can enter in extra nobility data.

Is it possible for you to not delete this information or for all of us, as in the wiki team, to discuss it?

Seriously, not my pet peeve, designed and implemented for others... including by Marc's request as part of future nobility plans.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:14, 20 May 2017 (EDT)

---

The respect for the content and layout of articles goes both ways. I assert that if Wayne or any of the other wiki editors wanted to add content to an article, they are fully capable of adding the correct headers at this same time. And that the Manual of Style/world exists for this exact reason.

I am also strongly of the belief that the Template: Imperial Nobility, Template: Starport, Template: World Tech, and Template: WorldGov should not be added to every single world article. I'm even thinking about replacing the Imperial Nobility template in the StellarDataQuery.

There should instead be longer, more comprehensive, articles on each of the settings for these template values, with links from the world articles. These links should be both from the UWP and StellarDataQuery templates (i.e. in the infobox) and in the main article text; either from the header information or the other article information or both.

Finally, based upon my review of the changes I made the Akigir article, I would say the removal of the Imperial Nobility template and the header was accidental, not intentional. So thank you for having a discussion about these changes. Let's work some more on what the correct and appropriate layout for these articles should be. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:51, 21 May 2017 (EDT)

---

Maybe I am getting ready to show my age here, ages ago the conservation of space was at a premium (data-space in your RAM as well as transfer speed through your MODEM) due to the high cost of those micro-circuits. These days RAM and such are ridiculously inexpensive. The limitations of RAM and transfer speeds appear to have been pushed to the far back burner. But why should we burden those highways and parking lots with all the traffic?

That being said, I still see no reason to duplicate information on the same page, or copy info from one page to the next without elaboration. Take the entry on the starport, you can get that – as well as comparisons from one to the other – on the starport page; I see no need to copy (ok, “template” it) onto the world page. The same can be said for Template: Imperial Nobility, Template: World Tech, and Template: WorldGov unless there is a level of detail unique to that world to make it different enough to detail.

At that point, the template in use is really irrelevant, because you no longer have a tech level 9 world, but a tech level 9 (interstellar travel) and tech level 16 genetic engineering entry….. a rather unique entry that precludes the template style.

- Ssteve (talk) 10:26, 22 May 2017 (EDT)

---

How many of you have memorized the entire sequence? Marc Miller hasn't. Rob Eaglestone hasn't.

We make it easy for new people to get into the hobby by making it easy for them to understand. It's worth the effort and it costs next to nothing in terms of space. And I am one of the only one that takes the effort to do it so it's nothing to you.

Plus the new authors use those categories and details to help them develop content. MJD does. So do many others. It's meaningful.

I am fine if all of you don't want to do it, but my newbies as in 20-year-old players need it. Convention game masters write me all the time to tell me how much it's a great touch.

Let's not be stuck in the old ways. Put yourself in their shoes. I want a new and growing audience, not just old guys quibbling about silly minor details on an old-fashioned forum that almost no one reads.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:00, 22 May 2017 (EDT)

I know for sure that I don't have the UWP sequence in my memory (you know that there is only so much space), but the nice thing about this wiki is that when you hover over the UWP in the info-box you get that information.Ssteve (talk) 13:48, 23 May 2017 (EDT)

---

The issue here is who we feel the audience of the wiki should be. And the design therefrom. The wiki is not designed for Traveller authors. It says so on the front page. You wanted to put that as a headline at the top of the page.

The wiki was not designed to be used as handouts for games. If you think that's a good idea, let's discuss it further. There are several things we can do to make sure the lengthy(er) pages to be printed and given to players include all appropriate information.

The reductio ad absurdum argument for having to include everything is annoying and not what either of us have said. We both want a much smaller version of the existing text with links to the much longer and detailed articles. We want the reminders that Government type 5 really is Feudal Technocracy.

The main issue I have with the template generated wall of text, and I'm assuming you will want to add more, is it hides the content of the article. The content, the parts that are unique and interesting about the worlds are now buried under all the template generated text. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:08, 23 May 2017 (EDT)

I think Tjoneslo hit the nail on the head here; I also believe that the template generated text hides what is of value, the uniqueness for that particular entry in the wiki.Ssteve (talk) 13:48, 23 May 2017 (EDT)

---

I respectfully disagree with some of the things you are incorrectly attributing to me.

Who do you think the audience should be?

I think that the statistics data does just as much to hide the content using that argument and it's distinctly not user-friendly.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:16, 23 May 2017 (EDT)

---

For what it's worth, here is my Cr1...

When I started running my game 2 years ago, I found that keeping track of all the details about the UWP of each system and what they meant, well, impossible. Whenever my players arrived at a new system I had to look up the :details of the UWP in the book and decide how they would be received, what they would be allowed to carry, if there was a highport or not, etc. So I decided to make a spreadsheet where I could look up the info. The end result :was something that I can select a sector, then a system and it will give my about a 1/2 page of data that outlines, with details, the UWP, trade codes, nobility codes, PGB, base codes, etc. I find this immensely useful :information to have at my fingertips.

Looking at the page that started this discussion, I honestly see nothing wrong with it. The details of the UWP are at the bottom of the page, where they do not distract, hide, or take away from any other info. Personally, I would put them in a nice neat table and make them their own section of the page, but that is just my personal aesthetics. My point is that the information being on the World page does have value and that as long as it doesn't interfere with other information, what is the harm? Keeping it under the fold, as they say in the newspaper world, means that it will never be the first thing you see when you go to a world page.

--Rich aka DickNervous (talk) 21:12, 23 May 2017 (EDT)