Forum:Do Vacuum worlds have a climate?
Climate & Worlds (July 2017)
In the edit war over Cyrene (world), my assertion is that ice-capped worlds (Ic) do not automatically qualify for Cold or Frozen status. This is because ice-capped worlds are always vacuum worlds (atmosphere 0 or 1). It does need to be cold for ice to form. But what is the climate of the vacuum world? Say, for example, the lunar surface. Where temperatures range from 250°F to -250°F. Over a period of two weeks. So what is the climate for the moon?
In addition the Cold (Co) status indicats only the world is in the first orbit out from the habitable zone (HZ+1), which implies cold. But you can have worlds in the habitable zone orbit that are cold enough to have Ice over much of the surface, if the orbit is in the outer range of the habitable zone.
- Not really an edit war (That's a heavy handed approach...), but what is climate? Is it patterns of variation in temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, wind, precipitation, atmospheric particle count and other meteorological variables in a given region over long periods of time?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:20, 13 July 2017 (EDT)
- Vacuum worlds might have what some may consider a hydrosphere; the Hydro implies water, but I think most of us would consider any liquid part of the “hydrosphere” for the sake of this discussion. The cryosphere would then extend to that part of the hydrosphere that is not liquid at the ambient temperature. Ssteve (talk) 10:11, 14 July 2017 (EDT)
- Does a vacuum world have a temperature? What exactly is a temperature?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:58, 13 July 2017 (EDT)
- Temperature implies that you have heat. That heat for a world is normally the result of stellar radiation, or internal “volcanic” activity, although natural occurring radioactives may also be a source of said heat. That heat could conceivably provide us with an atmosphere, hydrosphere and/or cryosphere. Think of mercury (Hg), it has a freezing point of −38.83 °C and a boiling point of 356.73 °C; so depending on the temperatures… Ssteve (talk) 10:11, 14 July 2017 (EDT)
- Exactly, Steve. I so agree with you. Great points.
- What is the average temperature of the interstellar medium?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:17, 16 July 2017 (EDT)
- There are two problems here. First is Vacuum world climate. Which we could beat to death easily. The second, more important, item is the confusion between the terms in the trade classes for "Climate" and "Cold" and the exact rule definition "HZ+1" (Habitable Zone orbit + 1). Most of the descriptions for the worlds in Dagudashaag do not include orbital positions. So I'm objecting to the inclusion of the "Co" trade class based upon the descriptions which don't match the specific rule.
- Tjoneslo (talk) 20:36, 15 July 2017 (EDT)
- What are the specific rules for this case, Thomas? Where can I find them? I have T5 and it does not have clear rules.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:17, 16 July 2017 (EDT)
- Sure it does:
- T5.09 p. 408, Table 2b, Mainworld orbit has the orbit->climate mapping.
- T5.09 p. 410, the large table under climate, the codes for Frozen, Hot, Cold, Tropic, Tundra, and Twilight Zone all have orbital zone descriptions in the comments field to the right side of the table.
- T5.09: p.490-491, This section has a longer description of trade codes. Many of these descriptions are at odds with or contradict the ones used in the wiki. Also all have the orbital descriptions.
- T5.09: p.492, another copy of the table from p.410
- T5.09: p556, Another, different, description of the climate trade codes. Part of the Sophont Homeworld generation process.
- Thanks so much.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:14, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
- In systems with multiple lower-powered stars, is it possible to have a Cold zone in an area that might never be in a traditional monostellar star system?
- Astrophysics would seem to indicate that this is a distinct possibility. What is the average temperature of the interstellar medium?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:29, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
- It's possible. Usually involving highly elliptical orbits for either planets or one or another of the stars.
- The temperature of the interstellar medium is 2.725 K. I think instead what you are looking for is Black body temperature. There is a good description and calculations in Book 6, p. 47-48. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:56, 17 July 2017 (EDT)
- I will respond later.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 06:53, 18 July 2017 (EDT)
We do two different things:
Reading the text at a surface level and reading into the text at a deeper level to decipher what it means. Exegesis. Hermeneutics. Beyond literal and surface meaning. Minimalism versus maximalism.
1. Reading the text at the literal surface level. (“It says HZ+1 on the table.”) 2. Reading the text at a deeper level to decipher what it means. (“Why do both Tr and Ho read HZ+1, but their textual definitions indicate other conclusions? Are one of both inside of outside of the HZ?”)
I call it unclear because it doesn’t literally explain itself well. It’s vague and very subjective in many places. It’s also typo-ridden and full of logical inconsistencies. That’s not a value judgment. I still love it for what it is, but those are simple factual statements. For instance, is a tropical (Tr) and/or hot (Ho) world inside or outside of the habitable zone (HZ)? The text has different conflicting explanations. HZ-1 should indicate outside of the hab zone. But both (Tr) and (Ho) have that (HZ-1) definition, while also having text that indicates otherwise. Hot is at the limit of endurance, but inhospitable. Tropical is still hospitable, but uncomfortable. And while we have a frigid code (HZ+2), we also have a tundra (Tu) and a cold (Co) code, which are conflictingly both called (HZ-1). And we lack a (HZ-2) code, which should be really hot, but we also have an Inferno world (In) listed without a two-letter trade classification (TC) code, but not really expanded upon or well explained. The same with rad worlds and others. What do they mean? That’s up to us to make sense of it.
I have been trying to make sense of it while reconciling it to GURPS Traveller, Mongoose Traveller, and the other incarnations of Traveller. That’s well within the purview of the non-canon allowed and fan resource wiki. What’s right or wrong? All of it and none of it.
It’s not well explained.
This also beyond the reason why FFE uses the Tp code in the AOTI novel, but it’s not in the large T5 paperweight / Tome of Lore. Did it develop later? Was it overlooked? Is it a mistake? Should we care? We’re not arguing about the Tp code… We’re saving that argument for Co, Va, Lt and Ht.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 15:24, 21 July 2017 (EDT)
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- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 15:26, 21 July 2017 (EDT)