Editing Forum:Do Vacuum worlds have a climate?

{{Forumheader|Watercooler}}

<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ -->

== Climate & Worlds (July 2017) ==
In the edit war over [[Cyrene (world)]], my assertion is that ice-capped worlds (Ic) do not automatically qualify for Cold or Frozen status. This is because ice-capped worlds are always vacuum worlds (atmosphere 0 or 1). It does need to be cold for ice to form. But what is the climate of the vacuum world?  Say, for example, the lunar surface. Where temperatures range from 250&deg;F to -250&deg;F. Over a period of two weeks. So what is the climate for the moon?

In addition the Cold (Co) status indicats only the world is in the first orbit out from the habitable zone (HZ+1), which implies cold. But you can have worlds in the habitable zone orbit that are cold enough to have Ice over much of the surface, if the orbit is in the outer range of the habitable zone. 
* [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 21:34, 12 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
: Not really an edit war (That's a heavy handed approach...), but what is climate? Is it patterns of variation in temperature, humidity, atmospheric pressure, wind, precipitation, atmospheric particle count and other meteorological variables in a given region over long periods of time?
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 07:20, 13 July 2017 (EDT)
 
---- 
:: A region's climate is generated by the climate system, which has five components: atmosphere, hydrosphere, cryosphere, lithosphere, and biosphere... as per Wikipedia...
:: and vacuum worlds would (at least in my opinion) be hard pressed to support a biosphere. [[User:Ssteve|Ssteve]] ([[User talk:Ssteve|talk]]) 08:37, 13 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
:: And a vacuum world is missing the atmosphere, hydrosphere, biosphere, and, usually, the cryosphere. So what again exactly is the climate of a vacuum world? [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 22:34, 13 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
: Vacuum worlds might have what some may consider a hydrosphere; the Hydro implies water, but I think most of us would consider any liquid part of the “hydrosphere” for the sake of this discussion. The cryosphere would then extend to that part of the hydrosphere that is not liquid at the ambient temperature. [[User:Ssteve|Ssteve]] ([[User talk:Ssteve|talk]]) 10:11, 14 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
: Does a vacuum world have a temperature? What exactly is a temperature?
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 22:58, 13 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
:: Temperature implies that you have heat. That heat for a world is normally the result of stellar radiation, or internal “volcanic” activity, although natural occurring radioactives may also be a source of said heat. That heat could conceivably provide us with an atmosphere, hydrosphere and/or cryosphere. Think of mercury (Hg), it has a freezing point of −38.83 °C and a boiling point of 356.73 °C; so depending on the temperatures… [[User:Ssteve|Ssteve]] ([[User talk:Ssteve|talk]]) 10:11, 14 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
: Exactly, Steve. I so agree with you. Great points.
: What is the average temperature of the interstellar medium?
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 07:17, 16 July 2017 (EDT) 

---- 
::: There are two problems here. First is Vacuum world climate. Which we could beat to death easily. The second, more important, item is the confusion between the terms in the trade classes for "Climate" and "Cold" and the exact rule definition "HZ+1" (Habitable Zone orbit + 1). Most of the descriptions for the worlds in Dagudashaag do not include orbital positions. So I'm objecting to the inclusion of the "Co" trade class based upon the descriptions which don't match the specific rule. 
::: [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 20:36, 15 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
: What are the specific rules for this case, Thomas? Where can I find them? I have T5 and it does not have clear rules.
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 07:17, 16 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
:: Sure it does: 
:: T5.09 p. 408,  Table 2b, Mainworld orbit has the orbit->climate mapping. 
:: T5.09 p. 410, the large table under climate, the codes for Frozen, Hot, Cold, Tropic, Tundra, and Twilight Zone all have orbital zone descriptions in the comments field to the right side of the table. 
:: T5.09: p.490-491, This section has a longer description of trade codes. Many of these descriptions are at odds with or contradict the ones used in the wiki. Also all have the orbital descriptions. 
:: T5.09: p.492, another copy of the table from p.410
:: T5.09: p556, Another, different, description of the climate trade codes. Part of the Sophont Homeworld generation process.

---- 
: Thanks so much.
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 07:14, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

----
: In systems with multiple lower-powered stars, is it possible to have a Cold zone in an area that might never be in a traditional monostellar star system? 
: Astrophysics would seem to indicate that this is a distinct possibility. What is the average temperature of the interstellar medium?
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 07:29, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
:: It's possible. Usually involving highly elliptical orbits for either planets or one or another of the stars. 
:: The temperature of the interstellar medium is [[Wikipedia:Cosmic_microwave_background|2.725 K]]. I think instead what you are looking for is [[Wikipedia:Black-body radiation|Black body temperature]]. There is a good description and calculations in Book 6, p. 47-48. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 20:56, 17 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
: I will respond later.
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 06:53, 18 July 2017 (EDT)

== Face Value & Actual Meaning (July 2017) ==
We do two different things:

'''Reading the text at a surface level''' and '''reading into the text at a deeper level''' to decipher what it means. Exegesis. Hermeneutics. Beyond literal and surface meaning. Minimalism versus maximalism.

# Reading the text ''at the literal surface level''. (“It says HZ+1 on the table.”)
# Reading the text ''at a deeper level to decipher what it means''. (“Why do both '''Tr''' and '''Ho''' read HZ+1, but their textual definitions indicate other conclusions? Are one of both inside of outside of the HZ?”)

I call it unclear because it doesn’t literally explain itself well. It’s vague and very subjective in many places. It’s also typo-ridden and full of logical inconsistencies. That’s not a value judgment. I still love it for what it is, but those are simple factual statements. For instance, is a tropical (Tr) and/or hot (Ho) world inside or outside of the habitable zone (HZ)? The text has different conflicting explanations. HZ-1 should indicate outside of the hab zone. But both (Tr) and (Ho) have that (HZ-1) definition, while also having text that indicates otherwise. Hot is at the limit of endurance, but inhospitable. Tropical is still hospitable, but uncomfortable. And while we have a frigid code (HZ+2), we also have a tundra (Tu) and a cold (Co) code, which are conflictingly both called (HZ-1). And we lack a (HZ-2) code, which should be really hot, but we also have an Inferno world (In) listed without a two-letter trade classification (TC) code, but not really expanded upon or well explained. The same with rad worlds and others. What do they mean? That’s up to us to make sense of it.

I have been trying to make sense of it while reconciling it to GURPS Traveller, Mongoose Traveller, and the other incarnations of Traveller. That’s well within the purview of the non-canon allowed and fan resource wiki. What’s right or wrong? All of it and none of it. 

It’s not well explained.

This also beyond the reason why FFE uses the '''Tp''' code in the AOTI novel, but it’s not in the large T5 paperweight / Tome of Lore. Did it develop later? Was it overlooked? Is it a mistake? Should we care? We’re not arguing about the '''Tp''' code… We’re saving that argument for '''Co''', '''Va''', '''Lt''' and '''Ht'''.
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 15:24, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
:: If you read the references I provided, you would see that Hot (Ho) is just in HZ-1, but Tropic (Tr) includes the requirements for being size 6-9, Atmosphere 4-9, and hydrographic 3-7 in addition to being Hz-1. There is a similar difference for the Tundra (Tu) vs Cold (Co). So it's clear from the tables the two/four are different, and easy to see what they are. 

:: There are worlds that are described as "Hot", "Tropical", "Tundra", or "Cold" that don't fit the precise definitions of the trade codes. So the question becomes do we want to expand the rules definitions of the trade codes to cover these worlds, or do we want to accept the idea authors may have written their world descriptions to the rules. More precisely, almost all of the world descriptions in the wiki were written before the T5 rules/definitions for the climate code were published. So it's possible to have a world described as "Cold", but not fit the definitions required for the "Co" trade code. I see no conflict here.  

:: For the Temperate code there is a [http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=34474 T5.09 Errata Thread]. It's fan addition from Galactic and used in some of the fan generated sectors. But the climate trade codes were never added to official rules until T5.

:: As a second edit: I realize the term "Climate" for these codes is wrong. A better description should be "Orbital position". So we would have Inferno (If, HZ-2), Hot (Ho, Hz - 1), Habitable Zone (Hz, Hz), Cold (Co, Hz + 1), and Frozen (Fr, Hz + 2). Usually the Hz code is omitted because it is assumed. 
:: [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 22:44, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
I didn't just read them. I transcribed them. You make an assumption when you write "if."
: I would love to learn your interpretation since we are not yet on the same page.
: You may also notice that there are different definitions in different parts of the T5 book. Not consistent.
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 22:48, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
:: I realize the term "Climate" for these codes is wrong. A better description should be "Orbital position". So we would have Inferno (If, HZ-2), Hot (Ho, Hz - 1), Habitable Zone (Hz, Hz), Cold (Co, Hz + 1), and Frozen (Fr, Hz + 2). Usually the Hz code is omitted because it is assumed. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 23:54, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
: All of the assumptions, omissions, and forget-to-mentions really suck for fans.
: It's probably a really good idea to get explicit and make these things easy to understand. As easy as possible.
: That's why I bother even though I have to paddle upstream against you so much of the time.
: And I hesitate to ever get Marc involved because I think his time is better spent working on the next novel.
: We really ought to just talk on the phone some time and form some sort of a positive connection. We can preserve the records later as you wish.
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 00:22, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
:: I fail to understand your point. We're in agreement here: 
:: 1) The T5.09 rules descriptions of these codes, indeed all of them are inconsistent, and should be updated. When the process of submitting Errata for the rules resumes these points should be on the list. 
:: 2) Describing these codes as climate codes contributes to the confusion because what the rules describe and text implies are at odds. 
:: 3) There are at least two orbital position codes missing (HZ-2 and HZ), which makes it difficult to apply them, and there are two redundant ones, again with no clarification for application. 
:: The point where we need clarification is do we need climate codes for planets at all? 
:: As you point out in your description below, when a system has more than one star, the climate of a world will vary. Book 6, page 42 has the rules for calculating this effect. Planets are also big places, and the climate varies across them widely.
:: The DGP [[World Builder's Handbook]] have the description of how to calculate temperature differences across the surface of a world based upon the primary. So is there any good way, or real reason, to make a single trade code to describe a planet climate? 
:: [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 08:53, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
: Is anyone doing errata anymore now that Don is gone? RIP.
: Were you ever an engineer or a computer programmer? You have a distinct skill set.
: Yes, I think the climate codes are valuable for players and fans. Worth preserving rather than tossing out the baby with the bathwater over quibbling.
: Thanks for your communication.
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 09:12, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
: The world builder series is worth figuring out:
{{Ludography cite|name=Worlds and Adventures|page=}}(1977) created the [[UWP]], which was later expanded with "Extended [[UWP]] Statistics", and was continued with the following products:
* [[World Displays]] (1981), by [[Ad Astra Products]], which provided subsector and world record forms. 
* [[Grand Survey (book)|Grand Survey]] (1986), by [[Digest Group Publications]], which detailed the [[Imperial Interstellar Scout Service]] and the [[Grand Surveys]], which allowed detailed physical characteristics and an accurate map of the world. [[Grand Survey (book)|Grand Survey]] called the [[UWP]], the UPP or Universal Planetary Profile.
* [[Grand Census]] (1987), by [[Digest Group Publications]], which detailed world cultural characteristics, including details of the social structures, government institutions, languages, and technology of the [[UWP]].
* [[World Builder's Handbook]] (1989), by [[Digest Group Publications]], which detailed how [[IISS|Imperial Scouts]] survey and explore new worlds including colonization and world mapping techniques. 
* [[World Tamer's Handbook]] (1994), by {{GDW}}, which brought even more detail to the survey and colonization processes.
* [[Traveller 5th]] (2013), by [[Far Future Enterprises]], which further continues the [[UWP]] legacy with many new features.

---- 
:: I would add this this list: 
:: * [[GURPS Traveller: First In]] (1999) by [[Steve Jackson Games]]
:: * [[Mongoose Traveller: Scout]] (2009) by [[Mongoose Publishing]]
:: [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 17:01, 22 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
Great additions. When do you plan to do it?
: I salute your choices.
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 09:37, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

:: ?? Do what exactly? 
:: I don't like the idea of climate trade code for all the reasons listed above and will object to their addition. The orbital parameters trade codes are interesting, but require the generation of the full system to accurately calculate, and that violates the "MORAN" principle. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 18:25, 23 July 2017 (EDT)

== Monostellar vs. Polystellar (July 2017) ==
{| class="wikitable sortable" 
|-
! Why we need to look deeper at the TC’s & Climate codes (c. 2017)
|-
|Orbital descriptions have lots of meaning in a monostellar system.

Orbital descriptions get far more complicated in a polystellar system. Two or more stars can really change the radiation intake on what might be a '''As''' or '''Va''' world. The gravitational and radiative relationships can get quite complex. The fairly safe assumptions made in a monostellar system are absolutely no longer safe in a polystellar system.

I have defaulted to a '''Co''' climate code on '''As''' and '''Va''' worlds in the absence of instruction or clear guidance. A '''Fr''' climate code is just as possible. The natural tendency of water in an intrasystem or even transystemic location is as frigid ice. The vast majority of the ''interstellar medium'' is well below the freezing point of water, even considering variable pressures, cosmic radiation, and other variables. You have to get pretty close to a star before ''frozen water'' is no longer a given.

'''Ic''' is not well defined. It reads ''ice-capped'', but is it ''ice-capped'' (poles) or ''ice-covered'' (frozen through)? An '''Ic''' world under the T5 definitions could easily be '''Co''' or '''Fr'''. When I write to you that the T5 materials are often unclear, that’s what I mean. Even if you insist that some of those citations are really quite clear. They don’t draw distinctions and the orbital data has acknowledged limitations, even before we consider polystellar systems, which are quite common and a serious factor, not some ultra-rare circus spectacle. I do regret that this often causes you consternation.

'''Co''' seems to be a better default position considering story variables. Easier to explore, closer to the mainworld if it is not a mainworld, and more likely to have exploitable resources of a conventional nature. 

Belters will deal with '''As''' worlds, which are probably '''Fr''' by default. Frozen water certainly gets mined by belters. And isn’t '''As''' just a type of '''Va'''? Same lack of atmosphere. As has more friends though. But neither '''As''' or '''Va''' have achieved gravitational rounding making them sub-planets, planisimos, planetoids, or whatever other term gets employed to indicate worlds or spatial objects with a microgravity OR without a significant gravity.
|-
|}
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 15:26, 21 July 2017 (EDT)

---- 
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here.... to me Va implies a world size of 1 or greater; that provide a sizeable body that has a considerable gravity. Maybe not near enough to retain a measurable (or at least reasonably useable) atmosphere. "As" in  my mind is a small body (so less than size 1 (1600km diameter)), that would have "neglible" gravity to retain an "Atmosphere".
[[User:Ssteve|Ssteve]] ([[User talk:Ssteve|talk]]) 18:12, 25 July 2017 (EDT)

----
I get you, Steve. We don't really have a super well defined line between [[plantesimal]], [[planemo]], [[planetoid]], and [[planet]], let alone the other terms.
: T5 says: Vacuum World Atm= none
: T5 says: Worldlet Siz= 1D - 3
: Planetoids are the worldlets of a Belt. The Population, Government, and Law Level represent the general level throughout the Belt. 
: I would imagine that the functional line involves gravitational rounding.
: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 20:34, 25 July 2017 (EDT)
@@ Line 150: / Line 150: @@
 : - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 09:37, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
-----
 :: ?? Do what exactly?
 :: I don't like the idea of climate trade code for all the reasons listed above and will object to their addition. The orbital parameters trade codes are interesting, but require the generation of the full system to accurately calculate, and that violates the "MORAN" principle. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 18:25, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
-----
-: Do what? Add the two references into the worldbuilding series.
-: What do you mean by MORAN? Map Only Really as Necessary?
-: That's not what wikis are about. Everything we do violates that principle at the level you interpret it at, which is for referees to save them work. Our job makes theirs easier, which is fully in compliance for the ultimate goal of MORAN, if that's what you mean.
-: My strategies and those of the community I represent are ultimately to support the referee, player, and fan community, all of them, not just the old grognards intimately acquainted with the OTU. When I discuss this, you usually seem to miss or ignore this.
-: Written communication is insufficient to communicate with you. That's is why I have politely requested an expansion of communication with you for a number of years.
-: You and Rancke pretty much have objected to almost everything anyway. Others too. Most of whom readily use the features that I have slowly added to the wiki along with the team I work with.
-: Anything and everything has habitually been a fight with you, even when you later co-opted and overwrote the idea/s that I and others have introduced to the wiki, many with explicit inner circle encouragement including that of FFE.
-: I think this reaction is just a part of much of the older grognard community. We really need to get past that attitude and move on to supporting each other and making Traveller more accessible.
-: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 23:52, 23 July 2017 (EDT)
 == Monostellar vs. Polystellar (July 2017) ==