Difference between revisions of "User talk:Maksim-Smelchak"

Revision as of 14:47, 18 November 2018

Capitalization of words in article titles (2017)

I'm looking to update more of the unwritten wiki rules in the manual of style, and it contains the following:

Article capitalization: Unless the name of the article contains a proper noun, only the first word should be capitalized.

I've been trying to create new article following that rule, but since you keep moving them to articles with Initial Capital Letters, I figure we should update the rule. That rule comes from Wikipedia via English language use in articles, so need to at least try to explain why. So do you have a reason or are we just codifying my bad habit of poor naming practices from the early days of the wiki? Tjoneslo (talk) 18:07, 28 October 2017 (EDT)

I think this is subjective thing. I've mainly policed it to keep it consistent.

We now have thousands of articles and I am not enthused to update one way or another.
I know what the other wiki does from my days there.
I also come from an MLA background, which is different from Chicago School...
I am open to discussion, but the idea of updating everything makes me cringe.
I already know that the sectors that have been previously entered will eventually need updating. So far, I have pushed forward with newer materials so there is a baseline from which to update /further edit worlds. It's harder to start from scratch than get someone to modify existing material.
We're partners on this, one way or another, and your opinion is very important to me.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:56, 28 October 2017 (EDT)

I bring up Wikipedia because it is likely, as we attract new contributors, that they, like you and I, will have experience with Wikipedia or other wiki's and their rules for formatting and style.

One of the issues you've brought up to me on several occasions is the unwritten rules of the wiki. So I'm trying to address them by ensuring we're in agreement on what they should be, and make them written rules.

My strong preference is to update the articles to be consistent with the existing rules. This is work I'm willing to take on.

If you find the inconsistency between naming styles for article as I, very slowly, update them, we can come up with a plan to address that to.

But since you are very reluctant to have the articles updated, I wanted to discuss updating the rule in the Manual of Style. Since it would be different from many of the other wiki's which new contributors would likely be familiar with, I would like to explain why.

Tjoneslo (talk) 10:12, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

I am open to change and update, I just dread doing it.

I have personally entered and updated thousands of worlds, established baseline articles for much of the OTU, and continue to plug away at it. It's worthwhile but time-consuming.
I really appreciate what you do and that work is invaluable.
What I want more than anything else is to create an encouraging culture, not the old grognards dumping on each other and newcomers. I would like to see us grow into an encouraging and inspiring community.
By all means, let's update after we work out a plan together. I think that your goods work is invaluable and any future interstellar economics work will invariably be based upon the foundation that you have laid by synthesizing various Trav versions.
I am mostly focused on building a community, expanding our possibilities through discussion with the publishers, and laying a foundation to help us link to and expand to the Trav Map.
- That mostly gets channeled into developing new product and supporting those who write it.
Thank you for all that you do and that you have done. I never what to lose sight of your immense contribution.
It's mostly the two of us right now, building this thing out. Sky's the limit. All ideas open. I am leaving your goods articles alone the best I can resist since I recognize that you are exploring new ways to do things, and knowing you, they will be better than what we currently have.
I really don't want to be locked into the ways that the other wikis do things. I've seen a lot of it degrade into crudola.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:30, 29 October 2017 (EDT)

Thomas, I have been reviewing your inquiry and I still think you make very valid points. I have spoken about this matter with a number of members of the Inner Circle and also other fans.

I still think that using "Title Case" (All Caps For All First Letters) rather than "Sentence case" (Front cap only) is a better choice. It also happens to be a choice used by a number of the Traveller periodicals. The Travellers' Digest, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society, and Challenge all predominantly used this style. I realize that the mainline wiki uses a different style, but I think we are best cleaving to Traveller tradition in this matter. I realize that there are plenty of exceptions within Trav literature.

You are of course welcome to use whatever style you wish for your future published products. I am very willing to put an edit moritorium on all goods files when you are close to publication so you can have things exactly as you want them. We can discuss details when you are ready to do so and closer to publication.
I also want to mention that in the course of updating periodical files, I am noticing a number of goods that lack articles. FYI.
Thank you for your inquiry. I owe you one as usual.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 15:36, 3 January 2018 (EST)

Categories for Rule of Man and Second Imperium worlds? (2017)

Is there a reason why we have a two categories for the Category: Rule of Man worlds and Category: Second Imperium worlds? Since they are the same thing shouldn't we have only one category for this? Tjoneslo (talk) 12:11, 18 November 2017 (EST)

Will respond later.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:41, 18 November 2017 (EST)

Same question about Category:Ziru Sirka worlds and Category: First Imperium worlds. I figure we should have one policy for all the categories.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 21:54, 18 November 2017 (EST)

I built in that redundancy to cover either base depending if Marc shows a later preference.

It's easier to have a choice and put in up front. Much easier to pare down later.

- 22:44, 18 November 2017 (EST)

I am confused. That does not sound to me to be an ideal way to set Wiki policy. In my conversations with Marc, he always seemed to be an easy going guy. So I'm trying to find a consistent policy we can explain.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 08:00, 19 November 2017 (EST)

I'm running around crazy this weekend (...giving several lectures and a keynote), but I'll kick this out quickly:

Why not emulate Marc's easygoing nature then? Why not ease up on it yourself?
Is there any reason why both can't exist? What are your compelling reasons why they can't? Are those reasons overwhelmingly important?
I believe in redundancy, accessibility, preservation, and synthesis. Those are values that I express heavily.
I am also discovering that when it comes to Traveller, I am a structuralist. You have some elements of that thought too. We're both compulsive as well.
I applaud your effort to find a consistent policy we can explain. Thank you.
By the way, you did some very neat work with the atmosphere page. My compliments to you. I need to run for now.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 12:40, 19 November 2017 (EST)

This wasn't an immediate problem. So thank you for taking time from your busy weekend to address it.

In addition to all my other fine qualities, I dislike duplication. I find it causes confusion and problems. In this case Category:First Imperium worlds has 2195 articles, whereas Category:Ziru Sirka worlds has 623 article. Similarly, Category:Second Imperium worlds has 2319 articles, and Category:Rule of Man worlds has 2325 articles.

I also dislike solving problems more than once. However we end up solving this, I never want to have to go through two categories with 2000+ entries to find the small set of differences. I absolutely never want to ask anyone else to do it either.

But like I said, this isn't an immediate or pressing problem. I am working on a solution to make simple changes to many articles all at once. So I would like think about this, come to an agreement about how to address it, make sure we never have to solve it again, and fix it once.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 21:18, 19 November 2017 (EST)

Thinking ahead is often a better solution that coming behind. An ounce of prevention...

If need be, I will make all of these corrections myself. You needn't worry about that. I input most of those and I will fix them if need be.
Welcome.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:36, 20 November 2017 (EST)

Order of parameters in templates (2017)

In Nushilii you reorder the template parameters into alphabetical order. I prefer you leave them in the order the values appear in the infobox. It makes finding and updating them easier. Because the parameter names and titles are not the same it’s hard to make sure the correct field is updated. It also provides a second confirmation of which parameter is being changed. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:07, 8 December 2017 (EST)

Let's re-order the template then.

And either make the names or titles match or otherwise make it more user-friendly for people not trained as we are, as superusers.
If you explain how your second confirmation of which parameter is being changed, we can find a way together to make it user-friendly for you, me, and others.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:42, 8 December 2017 (EST)

In Template:Animal, the fields are currently laid out following the recommendations from the T5 Core Rules. How should we re-arrange or rename the fields so they follow your requirement of being in alphabetical order?

The second point is some people use visual layout to track which values go with which parameters. So Body Shape the parameters in display order are:

|size = 
|stance =
|length = 
|profile = 
|mass =

Which matches the layout of the final display. So it becomes easy to see and understand that if you fill out the first field in the group, the value goes in the first field in the Body Shape section. The second parameter goes into the second field, and so on. Regardless of the name. So this encourages the less sophisticated users to understand where the parameter values go, and how to match the names to what shows up in the final article. The idea of mapping names and values that can be arbitrarily rearranged is one of those items that confuses new people. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:35, 8 December 2017 (EST)

In that case, just ad a vertical bar in-between section to make it easier to read by eyeball.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:56, 9 December 2017 (EST)

My point is the order of parameters within the group should be in visual order. Tjoneslo (talk) 10:07, 9 December 2017 (EST)

You have my blessing for what it is worth. I want to get along with you. We just think very differently. Thanks for consulting me.

You are doing invaluable work, which is appreciated by me.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:12, 9 December 2017 (EST)

Thank you for taking the time to consider my proposal. I know you are quite busy. Tjoneslo (talk) 12:25, 9 December 2017 (EST)

Equipment entry text (2017)

Is there any way I can ask you to please stop re-writing the equipment entries. When you spend the time to write entries the results are great, they work well. But these changes are not as great, and I keep putting them back to make sure they look as good as possible for the final book publication. Thanks.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 18:57, 18 December 2017 (EST)

Which are the details you don't care for?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:23, 18 December 2017 (EST)

It's not a specific detail, but rather the general idea of trusting me to have these entries edited to a good standard. I have these in a good, but not perfect, state and your reverting the changes I find disruptive. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:14, 18 December 2017 (EST)

I absolutely trust you and I will help you compile a master document with exactly your stylistic preferences before you are ready for publication. But I keep the master file here stylized in a certain way based upon a large amount of feedback from publishers, fans, and referees. That's what a master editor does.

We all agree to the merciless editing that is written into the wiki. Myself, very much included.
If you want, we can create a daughter publication in the drop box to account for whatever your preferences may be.
I very much appreciate all that you do here at the wiki. Your legacy is quite awesome and still growing. Thank you.
I am going to assume that you will want to add entries for image, caption, and mfg (manufacturer).

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:20, 19 December 2017 (EST)

The entire point of the project is a demonstration the wiki is a source of high quality, publication ready, content. So the wiki is my master document.

You are telling me the wiki can't support a variety of stylistic preferences?

Tjoneslo (talk) 08:17, 19 December 2017 (EST)

No, I am not telling you anything.

I am not your boss. I only ask you things sometimes.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:40, 19 December 2017 (EST)

"Merciless editing" should be a rarely used option, not a default state of addressing article changes.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 19:54, 19 December 2017 (EST)

I agree. It's a good thing that I almost never use that option except for with a very small minority of changes.

Why did you and others establish that policy?
Otherwise not telling you what to do. Sorry.
My policy is of cooperation and collaboration with you except where what you do runs over the work of others.
Badmouthing those with whom you work very infrequently engenders cooperation.
They are just stylistic differences for the most part, but there is a reason for them.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:22, 20 December 2017 (EST)

The "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will," line below the edit box comes as part of the default Mediawiki installation, which in turn comes from Wikipedia. If we don't like the statement, and the policy it implies, we should decide what the new statement and policy should be. The text can be updated as needed.

My problem with your current article style definition is it is too narrow. I understand the desire of people, none of whom are contributors, to have a better wiki to read. But there really can be a broader set of permissible styles for articles that still meets the ideal of a readable wiki.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 08:09, 20 December 2017 (EST)

Thank you for your comments.

Interesting to learn the default setting that the original wiki team decided on. Thanks for sharing it.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:06, 20 December 2017 (EST)

I'm just confirming you are refusing to consider expanding the writing styles allowed in the wiki articles to other than the ones you write. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:26, 20 December 2017 (EST)

Please consider this to be non-confirmation.

Everything is open to discussion and consideration.
There are many styles present at the wiki.
You know how to get ahold of me when you are ready to seriously talk.
I recommend waiting until you are calm and collected and not focused on hostility.
Wishing you well.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:31, 20 December 2017 (EST)

Well that clears that up. Thanks for your feedback. I look forward to working with you further on this project. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:49, 20 December 2017 (EST)

Back at you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:50, 20 December 2017 (EST)

Updating the older world articles? (2017)

In the T5SS emails you indicated that you had completed the process of creating world articles for all of the imperial sectors. Did you have a plan to update the articles you did initially? For example, the template on Moolly (world), and I'm quite sure the rest of Zarushagar Sector entries, are very much out of date from the current world format. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:49, 21 December 2017 (EST)

Yes. Want to help after you finish Dag to the format that you have chosen?

My next big astrographic goal is to put down baseline entries for the Solomani.
I might change it around if one of the developers has need of other data first.
I haven't put concrete dates on those tasks yet. I stay flexible as much as possible.
Adie is also coming along in his development.
And Mongoose has lots of plans for next year.
What are your future goals, Thomas?
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:38, 21 December 2017 (EST)

My big project for the next year is gettingTraveller Wiki Equipment Archive book done. The order of processing for this is:

Finish a pass of the existing articles to update to formatting standard and initial writing.
Do a pass through the T5 Core Rules book to make sure I have everything from that book and all the references are updated correctly.
Work through as many of the images as I can find and update the wiki articles with them. Also do a second writing/editing pass of the articles.
Archive the articles in the book. Send around for feedback.

Other projects include:

The Dagudashaag sector updates. I'm about 2/3ds done with that.
A number of smaller wiki updates and cleanup projects
The upgrade of the wiki software. I have a few new extensions to add during the update that ought to add some interesting functionality.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 09:17, 21 December 2017 (EST)

Thank you for sharing.

Happy Holidays!

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:59, 22 December 2017 (EST)

Re Dagudashaag updates, are the Ziadd minor human race now canon? The Minor Human Race list says yes, but the Ziadd article, she say no.

Alagoric (talk) 06:06, 1 January 2018 (EST)

The precise definition of Canon is sometimes fluid, but to the best of my knowledge, yes they are. Some of the Signak-GK material (like the Ziadd) got an unexpected boost from non-canon to canon because it was used in the T4 adventures.

- [User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] (talk) 07:33, 1 January 2018 (EST)

Yes, they, the Ziadd, are canon. I agree with Thomas. He speaks authoritatively on this issue with much experience.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:57, 1 January 2018 (EST)

Thank you, appreciated.

Alagoric (talk) 14:28, 3 January 2018 (EST)

Ht and Lt trade classification changes (2017)

I noticed you changed the text on the Ht and Lt trade classifications from the text we agreed upon. Can you enlighten me as to the reason for the change? Tjoneslo (talk) 20:48, 31 December 2017 (EST)

I will get back to you later. Thanks for your inquiry.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:23, 31 December 2017 (EST)

Previous discussion: Forum:Trade classification: Ht and Lt. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:34, 1 January 2018 (EST)

Thank you. We're probably better off using Mongoose codes in the Mongoose manner.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:49, 2 January 2018 (EST)

Does this include not using them for world articles outside of the Milieu 1105 and OTU charted space (e.g. Distant Fringe)? Tjoneslo (talk) 13:02, 2 January 2018 (EST)

I haven't broached that with Adie yet, but the codes would not work well in the Fringe since he is using a different technological paradigm. His realm is less advanced than Charted Space.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 13:05, 2 January 2018 (EST)

Use the TL template, not TL links please (2018)

Please use, or leave, the use of the Template:TL, and don't use the TL links. First the TL template creates the correct links, second it does the formatting correctly. Thanks.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 15:18, 13 January 2018 (EST)

Why? The TL-9 type works just as well.

Why, in your opinion, is it better?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 15:20, 13 January 2018 (EST)

The two reasons mentioned above. The template creates correctly formatted links, which is not apparent with the link setup. Second, it creates links to the correct page(s) as needed. It's also the standard used in the wiki.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 15:23, 13 January 2018 (EST)

Thank you for your advice. Much appreciated

The TL template is not longer the standard used in the wiki. It's now an optional choice.
It's no longer the default. It is certainly still permitted.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 15:26, 13 January 2018 (EST)

Thomas, please explain why how the TL template benefits you in detail?

Can't the goods template count the TL for you?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 15:43, 13 January 2018 (EST)

The Template:TL is designed, like all of the text expansion templates to ensure the layout, formatting, and links included in the wiki all follow a consistent standard. They exist to make contributors work easier and simpler.

The current format of the Template links only to the Technology Level page. I have noted you were re-arranging the Technology articles. I wasn't sure if you had completed that work to the point where I could update the template to link to the correct pages. Where would you like the template linked to? I noted there is, for example, a TL-1, a TL:1-3, and an Ur-Tech article. Where is the correct place for the template to link?

- Tjoneslo (talk) 17:17, 13 January 2018 (EST)

Thomas, you mentioned a consistent standard. What is that consistent standard?

I lack your time as an administrator here, but I haven't noticed too many standards.

The TL pages are all arranged now, but need further development.

The TL pages should link to their appropriate 3-TL groupings called a Epoch. Technology_Level#Chronological_Periodization

SEE:

So TL should be linked by level. TL's 1, 2 , and 3 go to TL:1-3 and so on and so forth.

Each Technological Epoch has a name for its tech and various other names that mostly correlate with canon publications.
There were gasps o those were filled in. And not just by me. Rob and Marc have also named some of the TL groupings.
Some groupings such as TL-0 count as both a TL or an AGE as well as an EPOCH.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 17:24, 13 January 2018 (EST)

I've updated the Template:TL to link to the correct articles. This will help encourage the correct standards of use. Thanks. Tjoneslo (talk) 17:53, 13 January 2018 (EST)

Thanks. We really need to find a way to communicate better. We can do a better job of this.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2018 (EST)

Alasdair Morgan Gunn changed to Alasdair Morgan Dunn (2018)

I'm confused, why change the name of a page for a character I created?

I apologize. Restored.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:22, 4 February 2018 (EST)

Thank you! I very much appreciate the quick attention and restoration.

Also, I see the article has been marked as a "Stub." Any advice on how to improve as it is written mostly from my play notes?

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Alasdair_Morgan_Gunn

Sure, I'll throw down some categories and you can write your story.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:15, 4 February 2018 (EST)

Tech Level Comparison Chart/meta (2018)

You reversions to Tech Level Comparison Chart/meta are deleting content. Please stop.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 17:15, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

You are mistaken. I exercise my option to break ties between us when we disagree. Please stop.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 17:17, 5 May 2018 (EDT)

Neither your mission nor your self-appointed veto absolve you of your responsibility to be welcoming to our users and good example of how to resolve issues with other users.

Your response to Bruce's contributions was terrible example of how to handle a situation.
Please do not treat Traveller Wiki contributors this way.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 08:40, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

You are mistaken. I have been working with Bruce Grubb for some time now. You are passing judgment without knowing even a fraction of the facts.

I welcomed Bruce when he first showed up and made contact with him, not that it's your business... at all.
My veto over just you, as it turns out... never needed it for anyone else, comes from Marc Miller and FFE, not self appointed.
We are communicating outside of the wiki and your purview.
I really encourage you to become more informed and reserve judgement.
Your exclusive focus on internet and online communication is a poor strategy. There's more to life than screen time.
Making authentic connections with people via E-mail, voice, text, and in person is vastly superior.
Thank you for your contributions to the wiki.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:22, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

All of this is irrelevant to the issue at hand, which is your handling of the issue over the content of this page. I have received complaints about this and am addressing them. I have reverted the protections on the page. I'm assuming, in good faith, you will resolve without having to revert or protect the page again.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 12:51, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

Thomas, I appreciate your help, but it is not your place to do that.

You should leave things alone and let them resolve themselves as was intended by the wiki's owner.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 14:53, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

Hfiywitir Sector (2018)

None of the subsectors in Hfiywitir Sector are named or any details about the internal structure are kept there. This is why I removed the references. I'm trying to clean them up. Please remove them. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:17, 20 May 2018 (EDT)

There are projects there that you are unaware of. You are removing someone else's notes, a developer.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:19, 20 May 2018 (EDT)

Can you provide me with any more details? Tjoneslo (talk) 18:53, 20 May 2018 (EDT)

No. I respect other's privacy when they request it.

I do it in a different way than you, but I do it. I'm ok with asking and then taking no, but I think asking is ok.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:59, 20 May 2018 (EDT)

That is expected, please ask. Until the members of your secret cabal of Traveller developers come here to the wiki and agree to work under our procedures and policies their work can't be used as article sources. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:57, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

That is up to FFE and the wiki owner, not you. Already asked.

Citations are cited and reviewed.
They are not my secret cabal of Traveller developers. I just work with them and others per FFE.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:11, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

The wiki can not use published or unpublished sources of information or data without the explicit written permission from the copyright holders. That permission needs to be here in the wiki. That also is not up to me, or you. So if the members of your secret cabal of Traveller developers would like update articles, they need to participate here like everyone else. If they're not willing to do that, that's up to them. Your second-hand references to information the wiki does not have permission to publish breaks the rules of the wiki.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 08:11, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

Several things here.

1) Copyright is granted only to published things. If something hasn't been published it isn't copyrighted. Of course the catch-22 here is it it isn't published then how do you know about it? :-)

2) "Most data is not copyrightable in the U.S. and copyrights usually do not apply and are not enforceable" (Copyright and Ethical Use of Data; University of Minnesota)

3) Small brief quotes (like the above from the University of Minnesota's web page) can be used without explicit written permission as long as the reference is also provided. This Fair Use doesn't allow you quote huge blocks of text but a short paragraph will generally past muster.

4) Simply rewrite the information. Ideas cannot be copyrighted. Period. Trademarked maybe (and that is very iffy)

5) Anything to do with Traveller would technically fall under derivative work which means the main copyright holder, Mongoose Publishing, has final say.--BruceGrubb (talk) 20:19, 13 June 2018 (EDT)

Publishing includes writing a note in a private email, or Facebook post. Part of the rules around using external works is the Traveller Wiki is the CC-by-SA change how writings (which are copyrighted) can be republished. There are a significant number of writers who dislike the CC-by-SA and variants. So the other part of the rules is an attempt not to alienate these people and encourage contributors.

The main copyright holder for Traveller is Far Future Enterprises. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:57, 14 June 2018 (EDT)

Not a secret cabal. Explicit permission exists where needed. No rules broken.

Please be civil. No name calling or wild accusations, please.
Not my second hand references. That practice comes from your time.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:36, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

I've become attached to the term "Secret Cabal of Traveller Developers", and am going to spread it far and wide on social media. Oh, wait. I'm not on any social media platforms. Oh well. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

Enjoy. Such a status quo. Want me to buy you a sombrero? Happy birthday...

The Inner Circle is what it is... Curiously, Don always felt that you had quite the influence with it.
There's a Russian saying: "In every joke, there is a measure of truth." Look up the term "Holy Fool."

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:09, 22 May 2018 (EDT)

Layout Templates 1 (2018)

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/index.php?title=Maksim-Smelchak%2Flayout_templates1&type=revision&diff=373770&oldid=366524

So I'm confused about this change. I just want to make sure I've got my automatic update templates to match yours. Mine all use the "/" convention, rather than the "(xx)" convention. Tjoneslo (talk) 18:56, 1 June 2018 (EDT)

Seriously. What is the standard around this? I'm planning some article updates and would like to make sure they are correct. Tjoneslo (talk) 12:02, 2 June 2018 (EDT)

If what you mean is parentheses, then parentheses.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:46, 2 June 2018 (EDT)

Well that makes no sense, but it does answer the question. Thanks Tjoneslo (talk) 06:25, 3 June 2018 (EDT)

I always try to be open to other ideas, especially people who think out of the box.

What would make sense and why?
Is this just an aesthetic thing or do you have deeper reasons?
The story is designed to encompass different AAB article formats.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 08:06, 3 June 2018 (EDT)

This is completely about aesthetics: page layout and design. The challenge here is when I "think outside the box" it is demonstrated that I'm thinking too far outside the box. So I'm asking about what the limits to the page layouts really are. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:05, 3 June 2018 (EDT)

Ok. Like you, I follow the wiki admin pages / messages (MediaWiki) and I think that we're well within the capabilities of the engine.

Do you have concerns? (Of course, you do...)

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:09, 3 June 2018 (EDT)

Now this is you being deliberately obtuse. My question isn't about the mediawiki capabilities, but about your page design and aesthetics. How far outside the box can I work on the aesthetics of article layout and design, specifically the titles? Tjoneslo (talk) 19:41, 4 June 2018 (EDT)

No. I really don't get it, but I have left the M-drive stuff alone since you are doing something. It looks good and planned, whatever it is.

Do whatever you need to do. I'm not sure what you are communicating.
This is one of those situations where a voice call might help since written words sometimes fail.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:24, 4 June 2018 (EDT)

Well, lets go back to my original question. In your private layout template pages you use two (very similar) formats for the headers used on every article.

Do you feel I must use one of these two headers layouts? Or can I choose my own?
If the answer to the above is no, which of the two header layouts should I use?

- Tjoneslo (talk) 06:45, 5 June 2018 (EDT)

Please enjoy the ones you like best. Invent new ones if you like.

I think that there is room for variety.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 06:54, 5 June 2018 (EDT)

So if the standard is to use the ones I like best what's wrong with "History of the TML" as a second level title in Traveller Mailing List? Tjoneslo (talk) 07:21, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

OK. Sure.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:24, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

InfoboxShip names (2018)

I found ships have different ways of specifying the names in the Template:InfoboxShip, so I picked one. Are you going to update the rest of the articles? Tjoneslo (talk) 19:00, 1 June 2018 (EDT)

What do you mean exactly? I have been updating everything, one by one, day by day.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 01:18, 2 June 2018 (EDT)

Thank you for updating all the articles. It will make later updates much easier. Tjoneslo (talk) 23:15, 2 June 2018 (EDT)

Welcome. Thanks for that you do as well.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:11, 3 June 2018 (EDT)

It looks like you got through all the Ship article. Good Job. They look great. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:02, 11 June 2018 (EDT)

Thank you. Now, is the tedious updating of tags and what not... plus clean-up.

And I am coordinating with ron, and securing full permission from Elv and others that Jmattera put into place.
Do you have any advice or pointers with your much valued experience?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:07, 11 June 2018 (EDT)

Plural acronyms (2018)

I just noticed that you reverted the edit I made to bring plural acronyms in line with standard practice: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/index.php?title=Technology_Level&type=revision&diff=362508&oldid=362486

After studying the matter a bit, I find that there isn't really one standard practice. But my edit was in line with the Wikipedia Manual of Style, the New York Times, and Steve Jackson Games (the only Traveller publisher that I know of that has a clear, public manual of style).

I invite discussion of the matter here: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Talk:Manual_of_Style#Plural_acronyms

— Steve98052 (talk) 20:33, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

Change it if you like, Steve. No worries.

The Trav Wiki is not the other wiki, the NYT, or SJG. It's its own entity.
Would you please link to the SJG public manual?
Thanks!

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:36, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

By "change it if you like", do you mean that I've made a sufficient case to persuade you to indicate plural acronyms without apostrophes? Or that I should go ahead and change the Manual of Style here to follow some version of that style? Or re-revert the edit I made?

To see how much work it would be to change all instances of "TL's" to "TLs", I did a search for "TL's". The search returned about 4000 articles that seemed to mention "TL" without mentioning it with the apostrophe plural. But a Google search returned only 14 links, which is more plausible to fix without a whole lot of scripting.

Here's the overall Steve Jackson Games style guide: http://www.sjgames.com/general/guidelines/authors/style.html
This is the Steve Jackson Games style guide specific to GURPS Traveller: http://www.sjgames.com/general/guidelines/authors/traveller.html

— Steve98052 (talk) 23:59, 19 June 2018 (EDT)

Yes, please proceed. I am not convinced yet, but you seem to be onto something.

Thank you for your response and sharing of the links.
Who are the top 3 users?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:17, 20 June 2018 (EDT)

Space (2018)

I tinkered with the sentence of Space that I found clumsily worded. I suppose "mess" wasn't a polite word for the change comment; sorry if it was your wording. — Steve98052 (talk) 20:30, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

Don't worry about it. It's a combination of at least three people's work. You know at least two of us. Wayne and I.

Please, do your magic!

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:33, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

History of sector design (2018)

This table is full of inaccurate, and incomplete information, which is why I keep removing it.

Statement	Status	Reason	Your Response
Traveller started life as an RPG game without a setting or designated star charts.	Questionable	Book 3 contains a blank star chart (TAS Form 6). The Imperium board game (1977) is a precursor to the Imperium has a map	TBD
There was, as of that time, no star charts, maps,	Questionable	See previous	TBD
There was no Charted Space.	True		TBD
The first Traveller star charts were designed as simple dot maps.	False	Book 3 has a full hex map. Adventure 1: Kinnur has a full hex map of Regina Subsector. The Spinward Marches (1979) has a full sector with maps. Judges Guild published (1981) four sectors with maps.	TBD
Many early legacy publishers created a variety of settings, maps, and materials, some of which has never been officially placed within the OTU.	True		TBD
As computer programs grew more sophisticated, better data was created including the well-known Sunbane data set.	Questionable	This should state the where the Sunbane data originated	TBD
In 1984, the Atlas of the Imperium was published, which still sought to preserve the legacy data.	False	There is no evidence the data used for Atlas of the Imperium captured any information other than the existing GDW publications (Spinward Marches, Solomani Rim)	TDB
It developed into Sunbane.	False	The Genii data was independently generated by Digest Group Publications	TDB
In 1989, The data was uploaded to Genii.	True		TDB
In 1994, the files were hosted on the Sunbane FTP server.	Questionable	The files were hosted on Sunbane prior to 1994	TDB
Sunbane was eventually included as a date set for the early Galactic design software, which could create entire sectors in Galactic File Format.	True		TDB
Random generators began to be created in this period. The software is very clunky and dated by today’s standards.	True	Galactic is one of these generators, and the primary one for data generation. This section omits the work of HIWG to enhance and extend the Sunbane data.	TDB
For the most part, the legacy data was not overwritten much in this period.	False	The publication of TNE and T4 changed the underlying generation system. Official publications made significant to the legacy data.	TBD
H&E largely superseded Galactic although many still use that venerable software.	False	The two packages are used in equal amounts by various Traveller authors.	TBD
Many homegrown programs and web sites also exist to create star systems, sectors, and even galaxies.	True	... but useless. This should include some of them as I have in the legacy page	TDB
Many publishers overwrote the legacy data in this period, particularly T20 and MGT products.	Questionable	The time range between 4. and 5. overlap the whole of the Marc Miller's Taveller publication, which may need to be included here. Many of the third party Licensed publishers didn't overwrite any data. So "many" is questionable.	TDB
T5SS was created as an update to the previous data sets including the most common one, the Sunbane set.	True	The time range for 6. overlaps with 5., making statements in the two sections difficult to reconcile.	TBD
Several companies including T20 and MGT have slowly been upgrading parts of Charted Space.	Questionable	T20 was not publishing in 2007, so wasn't part of the upgrade process.	TDB
FFE oversees the entire process.	True		TBD
T5SS has updated the UWP's of thousands of worlds to be more consistent with current astrophysics knowledge.	Incomplete	T5SS has several goals for their updates. It would be better to just link to the full list	TDB
A T5SS manual is part of an effort to somewhat standardize the chaotic system.	Incomplete	This should include a link to the T5SS manual	TBD
FFE has re-canon-ized some of the legacy data in this current, ongoing period.	True		TBD

- Tjoneslo (talk) 13:49, 23 June 2018 (EDT)

I am working on a version that will reconcile your opinions with those of others who experienced it.

Some of them feel that your opinions are inaccurate. I have spoken with others looking for the middle ground.
Thanks for your feedback.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:47, 23 June 2018 (EDT)

New design for the Main Page (2018)

I noticed you wanted to add an image to the upper right of the main page. I removed it because I would like to better understand why. The Main page does not, on purpose, look like any other page in the wiki. It is supposed to serve a different purpose. As the landing page to the whole wiki, it's supposed to serve to redirect everyone to the various key parts of the wiki. Your updates to this have been invaluable.

The right column is supposed to be the news and current events around Traveller. It's not been updated recently because no one has taken the initiative to maintain it. The idea is that section is to be at the top of the page to indicate it's importance. By adding an image, this becomes a less important section of the page. In addition, the generic "red sunburst" image isn't the best thing to put there. We have several non-generic images we could be using (the logo in the upper left for example). Or if you wanted to rotate the images of the Traveller covers we have in the image library that would be another idea.

In any case, let's design the page to look really good rather than trying to copy all the other pages. The Main page is special, and we should keep it that way. [

- [User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] (talk) 19:32, 23 July 2018 (EDT)

I respect your thoughts and values.

I am soliciting for someone to maintain the parts you mentioned and the graphic helps it to look Traveller when I ask about. Keeps the theme.
Most social media pages from FB, Google Plus, etc. take a preview graphic from the page.
I also am working on the ship and vehicles sections.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:35, 23 July 2018 (EDT)

Golden Age Starships series (2018)

Thanks for the updates to these book. There are three versions of the Golden Age Starships series of books as published by Avenger Enterprises.

The Traveller D20 ones. These are the originals
The Traveller Hero ones. These have "HERO" in the titles.
The Mongoose Traveller one. These were reprinted in a different order than the other two.

The Golden Age Starships Compilation is for the Mongoose version of the GAS books. Unfortunately, you caught me in the middle of updating the ludography with the MGT version of the books. I'm going to need to undo some of your changes to make sure the books are now correct. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:08, 14 August 2018 (EDT)

Sure. I'll back off. Appreciate what you do.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:13, 14 August 2018 (EDT)

Well I was going to tell you I've gotten through all the GAS books, but you seem to have discovered that. Question: Why is it we're now shouting "EXTERNAL LINK" ? Tjoneslo (talk) 22:04, 14 August 2018 (EDT)

Because, it works.

What is your preference and why?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:09, 15 August 2018 (EDT)

SOMETHING LESS SHOUTY? WHY DO YOU NEED TO MAKE THIS ALL SHOUTY?

COMMENTARY & DATA ARTICLES

EXTERNAL LINK: TBD

REVIEWS

EXTERNAL LINK: TBD

Tjoneslo (talk) 07:38, 15 August 2018 (EDT)

Ok. Off to my day gig.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:44, 15 August 2018 (EDT)

What about this:

Commentary and Data articles

blog post by me last visited 12:41 18 July 2018 (EDT)
blog post by you last visited 12:41 18 July 2018 (EDT)

Reviews

review my me last visited 12:41 18 July 2018 (EDT)

Other articles

online reprint last visited 12:41 18 July 2018 (EDT)

Or since you really like using tables:

External Links for
Maksim-Smelchak
External Link	Description / Notes	Last visited
Blog post by me	Blog post by the author	13:27, 15 August 2018 (EDT)
Blog post by you	Blog Post by you	13:27, 15 August 2018 (EDT)

You can set the "Last Visited time" by using 5 tiles ~~~~~. No more yelling. Tjoneslo (talk) 13:27, 15 August 2018 (EDT)

Sure, Thomas.

Do you want the table or just open code?
I don't need the table at all.
And I really appreciate you helping to make things better.
Please leave the style code you want here and I'll insert it into all future entries.
Thanks for everything.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:34, 15 August 2018 (EDT)

; Commentary and Data articles
:# [link] last visited ~~~~~
; Reviews
:# [Link] last visited ~~~~~

Like this? Tjoneslo (talk) 06:36, 16 August 2018 (EDT)

Not much time now. Get back to you later.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:55, 16 August 2018 (EDT)

Firearms Source vs Weapons source (2018)

What is the relationship between the Firearms Source vs. Weapons Source categories?

What is the larger, overall plan for the other Ludography "Source" templates?

- Tjoneslo (talk) 17:38, 26 August 2018 (EDT)

I don't know. I hadn't thought of it.

I am mostly using the firearms for smallarms and the weapons for larger weapons.
There is certainly overlap.
What do you suggest?
By the way, thank you for all of your hard work and publication updates. Really appreciate it.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:47, 26 August 2018 (EDT)

Here is a suggestion.

I started with the "Departments" definitions from JTAS: Amber Zone, Contact, Ship's Locker, Editorial, TAS News Service, Bestiary, Variant, Feature Article, Deck Plans, Referee's Notes, Rules, Upgrades, Forms, History. Freelance Traveller has an expanded (and differently named) set of departments for their articles. I also worked through the Traveller Bibliography to see what organization Timothy Collinson used for the bibliography.

There are three uses for this grouping. First would be to append a "Source" to each of these for use as a category (or collection of categories) for the various books, magazines, and PDFs. This would be extending what you already started, codifying it. For example, [[Category: Ship Source]] or [[Category: Deck Plan Source]].

I have a design for enhancing the Table Of Contents part of the Ludography. The second use has these items as the Department for each entry in the Table of Contents. I understand "Department" may not be be best name, but I'm running out of categorization names.

Third would be to pick one as a primary, what the majority of the book is about or the focus of the publication and add that to the Infobox. Give each publication a broad category of what it is about.

Game Information
- Bibliography
- Editorial
- Fiction
- Glossary
- Illustration
  - Character Sketch
  - Diagram
  - Deck Plan
  - Map
- Index
- Review
- Science
Game Rule
- Adventure
  - Amber Zone
  - Campaign Setting
- Character Creation
- Design System
  - Ship Design
  - Vehicle Design
  - Weapon Design
  - World Design
- Form
- Tasks & Combat
- Variant Rule
Background
- Astrography
  - Location
  - Sector
  - World
- Bestiary
- Library Data
  - History
  - Alternate History
- People
  - Nobility
  - Personality
- Technology
  - Equipment
  - Ship
  - Vehicle
  - Weapon
- Sophont

Tjoneslo (talk) 07:25, 27 August 2018 (EDT)

It's a nice idea. Bravo.

The cureent scheme already has much of it.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:36, 27 August 2018 (EDT)

Encompassing current use was part of the idea. No sense in re-writing a large group of articles if the existing system works.

Did I miss anything?

Tjoneslo (talk) 21:05, 27 August 2018 (EDT)

Looks good.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2018 (EDT)

Fleet numbers. Plus assistance offered (2018)

Maksim, just a question about fleet numbers. I asked on travellerrpg.com about inconsistencies etc. Here it is:-

Imperial Navy Subsector Numbering Pic in MT Rebellion Sourcebook contains a pic (p26) of Squadron numbers in 3I. It has a few errors in it. Is there possibly and updated version, to show Squadrons of all sectors correctly? (I can find 3 x 213th Squadrons)

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=39202

I like Major B`s advice. Have you any further clarification? i.e. Where do you refer?, is there a list, or do I go through subsector pages?

This is a video clip of my Subsector display program.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Zu-HgoDSV_IZXHZCsMFh5kpCpEzCAz7D/view

I would like to automate the process later, I`m enjoying creating these PDFs at the moment. What a rush! 100 Subsectors and counting!

Thanks for keeping site up-do-date.

T5 Sector updates: D dwarf stars replaced with M Stars. Can I help? What is the fastest way (if any) of downloading all .sec files? Or tell me files you wish modifying.

My program used to download them, but things have changed over the years.

Thank you MaggotIISS (talk) 21:48, 17 September 2018 (EDT)

Sure. Let's put this on the forums here so that Thomas and others are included.

I am in the middle of Jewish holidays so I'm a little more quiet and less active right now.
Chat with you when I come off the fast and religious observances.
Will write more then, in a day or three...
Thanks.

- 07:50, 18 September 2018 (EDT)

Intro to MarcusWelby (2018)

I found your introduction to Marcus to be a little strong, hence off-putting. I realize the second two points are directly cribbed from the copyright statement at the bottom of the page. Lets try this instead:

Welcome to the Traveller Wiki <username>. Thank you for your edits to <article with link>. There are guidelines for articles. Contact Thomas or myself, or post a note on the Forum:Watercooler, if you have specific questions. Please read the Copyright policy. Thanks, and welcome again.

- <Your Sig>

As a note about administration, and you have followed this previously, we should not post a welcome note to a user until they've made an edit and verified they are not a spammer.

- Tjoneslo (talk) 11:53, 10 November 2018 (EST)

If I have invited the person over, I feel less worried.

Please feel free to edit my welcome to whatever you think it should be. I trust your judgment.
Thank you for your advice and assistance.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:05, 10 November 2018 (EST)

Well that's my introduction. I'm hoping you'll use it as a working example. Having different introductions add a human touch. Tjoneslo (talk) 08:53, 11 November 2018 (EST)

Thanks. Appreciate your advice.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:22, 11 November 2018 (EST)

Allegiance code template (2018)

Please leave the blank fields in the allegiance code template. It inserts null values into the cargo tables, which in turn makes the query processing easier. Also, don’t change the values to links. The cargo tables know they are pages and create the links when included in the articles. Thanks Tjoneslo (talk) 11:00, 14 November 2018 (EST)

Thanks for letting me know.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2018 (EST)

Martin Dougherty added to the Zarushagar worlds? (2018)

I am curious why you are adding Martin's name to the world articles in Zarushagar sector. Tjoneslo (talk) 18:17, 17 November 2018 (EST)

He sent material for those worlds that was added.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:15, 18 November 2018 (EST)

SophontData template status parameters (2018)

The reason for my updates to the templates in the various article is because I've not updated the underlying template and cargo database processing. So the template page doesn't correctly understand either the comma list or the links in the names. This, in some cases, causes the processing to generate incorrect results or put wrong or bad data into the cargo table. When I try to pull it back out (e.g. for the spreadsheet), it comes out wrong or blank. So I fixed the ones that were broken to get the spreadsheet created for you, Marc, and the T5SS list.

I understand we've not agreed upon what the status parameter should hold. I was just trying to clean up the minimum required settings to get the spreadsheet to work.

As I said above for the Allegiance Code template, the status is understood as a page link, so adding it as a link will break things. When I fix the template, per the discussion in the forum, I'll make sure the template shows the link (or links).

Thanks for your understanding. Tjoneslo (talk) 15:40, 15 November 2018 (EST)

Ok. Fair enough.

Thanks for your patience in explaining it to me.
Can we keep multiple statuses somehow?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:53, 15 November 2018 (EST)

I've define 5 non-overlapping statuses in the forum article. (Major Race, Minor Race, Minor Human Race, Uplifted Race, and Chimera). What are the other ones you wanted to keep and why? Tjoneslo (talk) 18:19, 17 November 2018 (EST)

I am working with Marc regarding the categories.

The main reason that I and others have logically expanded them is to be comprehensive and close the gaps. It makes sense that:

Minor Race
- Minor Human Race
- Minor Non-human Race

The minor major scheme only really defines FTL acquisition.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:14, 18 November 2018 (EST)

Except the definition of Minor Human Race has nothing to do with FTL acquisition or empire building (the usual split between minor and major). It is Human's distributed by the Ancients to different worlds. Its a weird outlier category, not part of the usual hierarchy. And, by extension, all Minor races are not human. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:43, 18 November 2018 (EST)

The minor part of minor human race is about FTL.

Their origin as distributed and geneered species has nothing to do with it. I had that straight from Loren. RIP.

You are processing very differently than conventional logic.

Yes, not all minor races are human, hence:

Minor Race
- Minor Human Race
- Minor Non-human Race

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:47, 18 November 2018 (EST)