Difference between revisions of "User talk:Maksim-Smelchak"
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: - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 19:50, 20 December 2017 (EST) | : - [[User:Maksim-Smelchak|Maksim-Smelchak]] ([[User talk:Maksim-Smelchak|talk]]) 19:50, 20 December 2017 (EST) | ||
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| + | == Updating the older world articles? == | ||
| + | |||
| + | In the T5SS emails you indicated that you had completed the process of creating world articles for all of the imperial sectors. Did you have a plan to update the articles you did initially? For example, the template on [[Moolly (world)]], and I'm quite sure the rest of [[Zarushagar Sector]] entries, are very much out of date from your current world format. [[User:Tjoneslo|Tjoneslo]] ([[User talk:Tjoneslo|talk]]) 06:49, 21 December 2017 (EST) | ||
Revision as of 11:49, 21 December 2017
Empty Void Subsector (2017)
The "Subsector Summary: 1116" reads:
- Empty Void, subsector J of Star's End contains no charted worlds.
The problem is that Empty Void is Subsector J of Corridor, not Empty Void. As the World Listing: 1116 indicate, it is not entirely without charted worlds; it has one world.
I looked at the Wiki text, and found a template that I understand does a database lookup. It would seem that the underlying database has a glitch linking [almost] Empty Void subsector to the wrong parent sector. I don't know how to correct the database, or else I'd attempt to fix it myself.
Is there an editor's guide?
Also, do world listings need an era? The worlds may change their population, TL, government, etc. – maybe even their names, but except for Ancient' activities they don't change location.
— Steve98052 (talk) 13:35, 1 January 2017 (EST)
- Hi Steve, I am on vacation and only on a mobile device so I have a more limited range of response. Many of the templates were designed long ago before better disambiguation was set. Are you at CotI? Let's hook up through there and chat more. The bottom line, however, is that we, or you, will need to coordinate with Thomas to fix that. Not impossible. Very doable. I will help you if you like.
- There is no particular editor's guide, but there is a Manual of Style. It is a work in progress, but a good start.
- Let's talk later about UWPs and eras. Basic answer: yes. Thomas has many of the eras set to auto-populate.
- Happy new year 2017!
- Also, I really appreciate all that you do. Your work really makes a difference. Thank you.
- I think I have a CotI user name, but it's not on my usual bulletin board agenda. I'm more active on the SJGames and Mongoose Traveller discussion boards.
- Thanks for the Manual of Style link. I did a little work on that page while I was here.
- — Steve98052 (talk) 00:42, 13 January 2017 (EST)
Traffic/Use/Views Counter (2017)
Is there a way to determine the number of views per page, or the number of different people who have accessed a given wiki page? I am fairly certain it can be done, I just don't know how to gather that data. Which pages are popular, and how many people think so? Just curious.Ronald B. Kline, Jr. (talk) 01:48, 7 January 2017 (EST)
- You can start with Special:Statistics, Special:MostLinkedCategories, Special:ActiveUsers, and Special:MostRevisions which has some data. There are more on Special:SpecialPages.
- You can look at Special:Contributions to search for users to find who has been editing pages and how many.
- There is a Hit counters and User page view tracker extensions to track user data in the wiki. The Hit Counters used to be part of the core Mediawiki, but was removed in version 1.25, which is probably what you were remembering.
- I do have access to the usual web based analytical tools including google tracking, but they are carefully guarded behind multiple layers of security.
- Tjoneslo (talk) 12:25, 7 January 2017 (EST)
- I miss that feature too. Thomas, is there any way to track the hits for a specific page?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 12:28, 7 January 2017 (EST)
- The Hit counters was pretty useless, as it was only a counter of number of hits since the wiki was installed. The extension isn't much more helpful, but does have the counter on each page. The User page view tracker gives more data but doesn't put the data on each page. If you really want either one installed, let me know and I'll work on doing this. Tjoneslo (talk) 13:00, 7 January 2017 (EST)
I guess I was wondering, is there anybody out there, just whisper if you can hear me, is there anybody there? It looks to me that about 15 people have a bunch of edits and/or activity and 2000, signed up at one time but may or may not be reading/using any of this stuff.Ronald B. Kline, Jr. (talk) 04:01, 8 January 2017 (EST)
- Ron, please respond here: Forum:Watercooler under this topic: Poll:(re) adding the page hit counter.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:08, 8 January 2017 (EST)
- Ron, guys like you and I and Thomas are practically it. Of course there are others, the front page has Special:Specialpages and an Special:Activeusers. Enoki, Ssteve, Wayne, Farscout275, and others get more recognition there and they well deserve it.
- But, basically as you have noticed, we are it, a small dedicated core of enthusiastic volunteers, pretty much the norm for volunteerism.
- And that is why I advertise and ask for volunteers. Slowly building a community here.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:05, 8 January 2017 (EST)
Dagudashaag worlds as incomplete? (2017)
- Why are you marking the Dagudashaag worlds I've fixed as Incomplete? The features and structure of the articles matches the Manual of Style/world basic world outline.
- - Tjoneslo (talk) 06:27, 10 March 2017 (EST)
- Because they are not complete according to the advanced model that you approved.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:38, 10 March 2017 (EST)
- But that is the entire point of having the basic model. On the articles with few details we still have a complete layout and structure. 209.198.64.10 10:34, 10 March 2017 (EST)
- Please explain the point that you embrace.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:36, 10 March 2017 (EST)
- As I work through the articles in Dagudashaag I am working to make them up-to-date with regards to the current accepted format as described in Manual of Style/world. By marking them as Incomplete or Detail, you are telling me that I'm not doing this correctly. The articles don't have enough information in them to use the Advanced world layout, so I'm using the Basic one. What else am I doing wrong? Tjoneslo (talk) 23:29, 10 March 2017 (EST)
- You are not doing anything incorrect or wrong. It's not personal.
- We, as a team, can fill in the blanks.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:42, 11 March 2017 (EST)
- Both the Incomplete and the Detail templates state the article is missing either stylistic detail or important content, that is flagged as being broken is some significant manner. And I'm saying I've added all the stylistic detail per the Manual of Style, and all of the published content.
- Someone could create new content and add it to the article(s). But that's true of every article in the wiki. The encouragement to add new content to articles is already on every page.
- So what am I still not clear on how the articles are wrong. Tjoneslo (talk) 08:05, 11 March 2017 (EST)
- You are not wrong. It is not broken.
- I wouldn't interpret the codes that way.
- But a basic entry is the minimum, not the ideal. Ideal is complete. Minimum is a C+.
- As a fan resource, we should flesh out the articles. We are a land grab. Mine everything we can with citations and then finish the job. FFE has empowered us to do that.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:01, 11 March 2017 (EST)
Ht and Lt trade codes and "Non-canon trade codes" (2017)
- It is not a non-canon trade code, just an irregular one. According to T5 canon rules, Don's Hermeneutic, the pone that MWM approved, it is 100% canon. I can get that in writing for you if you need it.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 15:01, 18 May 2017 (EDT)
- The "Non-canon trade codes" parameter for the Template:StellarDataQuery is meant for trade codes that are not part of the canon T5 Second Survey data. Not that the codes themselves are not-canon.
- - Tjoneslo (talk) 18:48, 18 May 2017 (EDT)
- Thank you for your response.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:16, 18 May 2017 (EDT)
Placeholder Pages (June 2017)
- Can you fill out the following placeholder pages with more data?
- I have fleshed out the article with more data per your request.
- You will need to contact Jae for more info, wait for me to research it, or read up his materials to dig out more.
- I am not fully versed on it yet although I have made notes.
- Being Jae's baby, you are welcome to overwrite anything I added if Jae's details supercede or conflict my own initial understandings.
- To my knowledge, it is related to the Ilelish Revolt.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:07, 21 June 2017 (EDT)
---
Tjoneslo (talk) 08:47, 4 July 2017 (EDT)
Category: Sophonts vs Category: Sophont? (2017)
- What is the purpose of the category Sophont (singular)? The Manual of Style requests that all categories names be plural as they're a collection of items.
- - Tjoneslo (talk) 13:07, 5 July 2017 (EDT)
- Same thing as your plans for Dagu sector. I think there is a better way to do things and am experimenting with it the same as you.
- So far, so good.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:11, 5 July 2017 (EDT)
- Sure, care to explain where you are going with Dagu sector? What is it going to end up looking like?
- If we could make your data pages hook up with just one entry (wiki page) for each world-system rather than two, I see that saving us much trouble in the future. Multiple wiki pages slow things down.
- T5 has time periods set with iconographic symbols. I think we should use them to anchor each world with different time period entries, a sort of guide bar across the top of the page, Like various Star Wars wikis do.
- Right now, we are losing period data from Milieu Zero when the advanced UWP data is entered. I love the gain in statistics, but mourn the loss of period data. Technically it is still in record.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:24, 6 July 2017 (EDT)
- Right now I'm working through the Encyclopaedia Dagudashaag, making sure the entries are updated with current information, formatted to basic Manual of Style layout, and the various templates are correct for all the corner cases. I find it much easier to review the articles if they are only minimally formatted and don't include the generated templates. So I'm removing the templates and the detailed formatting to make my work easier. Once the review is complete we can see what a full article should look like.
- In terms of the Time Periods for worlds, the Star Wars wiki implements these as sub-pages. Which would be the idea for implementing the same idea here. So if you have trouble with multiple pages for world articles, getting the time periods implemented here will make the problem worse.
- Secondly, I am loath to give up the Template:StellarData on the separate page for storing the data. The automated process, part of the trade map generator, which updates these templates works best with the isolated pages. At the very least it's less likely to cause huge damage to the articles if I make a mistake with the upload process.
- Finally, I do not have the icons for the T5 eras. You will need to either send them to me or upload them as images to the wiki for us to use them.
- Because I have an automated process for uploading the Milieu 0 data, which I know is posted to Traveller Map site, putting the UWP and other data back into the wiki is pretty straight forward. But I would like to figure out if you really like the time period (sub-)pages or want to try another approach.
- Thank you.
- Mostly because work like yours indicates that the system needs an overhaul. Animals are different from plants. Both are creatures. The same with sophont vs. sophonts. Different things can be done with each.
- Once updated, we can see how things should look.
- Regarding sub pages, I think it's fine for the root page to remain as one-piece as possible, but other time periods will necessarily need sub-pages.
- Stellar data is working fine.
- Do you have a copy of the T5 disk? All of the icons are on it. If not I can E-mail them to you.
- Thanks for all of your hard work at the wiki.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:29, 7 July 2017 (EDT)
- Timeline now contains the best of the set of Icons for timelines that I can find in the T5 Symbols set, and it didn't even have all of them. If we want Icons for the various Milieu's we'll need to create the whole set from scratch.
- Still haven't answered my question: Why the two overlapping categories for Sophonts? Tjoneslo (talk) 13:48, 8 July 2017 (EDT)
- Thank you. That is very kind of you. I can talk to Marc and get the rest of the icon set.
- Much like your Dagu project, my sophont project is a work in progress. Thank you for your inquiry.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 17:14, 8 July 2017 (EDT)
Asking question or requesting clarifications (2017)
If you need to ask me a question or request a clarification, please do this via either my talk page, your talk page, or on the article talk page. Posting them in the status message for your changes means that I may miss them, and have no way of responding to them. I therefore assume they are rhetorical and need no response. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:59, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
- Sure I understand your communications restrictions and limitations.
- Thanks for writing.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:11, 24 July 2017 (EDT)
- From your subject line:
- > Thomas, why are those hyperlinks important to you? Please help me understand
- See Lead section # Format of the first sentence
- See Linking # Overlinking and underlinking
- See Text Formatting # Italic type
- From the Wikipedia that you quoted: Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.
- We're really better off developing out own standards than relying on ones created for other wikis that are mostly nonfunctional.
- I have been experimenting with trying to assist you more with your entries. If you like it, please say something. It would be nice to break the regular pattern of criticism.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:20, 25 July 2017 (EDT)
- From your subject line:
- > (the notes box is important for people like Wayne who do much of our star entry. Really not a good idea to delete it.)
- I have faith that the contributors to the wiki have the ability to read the documentation on the various templates and add the template parameters as needed.
- Tjoneslo (talk) 08:14, 25 July 2017 (EDT)
- You missed that documentation for a long time and you are the wiki master.
- The documentation was additionally pretty spares until I started fleshing it out.
- However, I really want to recognize the amazing job you do documenting the parameters you write into your programs. Love it. Mucho respect for you.
- 95% of the others don't know about or read it until I message or call them and point it out.
- Most folks look at the template and study other filled in templates. They don't get to the manual, guidelines, or instructions. Being that I talk in person with over 95% of the users, I'm pretty sure I have a good idea what they think and do since I directly ask and assist them.
- But I salute and encourage your faith in people.
- Thank you for the communication.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:19, 25 July 2017 (EDT)
From your subject line:
- > Why kill the flavor text? We get compliments on it all the time. It adds color to the site.
LWhat we?
- You have gotten compliments on this, but you don't forward, or post them anywhere. I've never seen any compliments or other feedback on this. So how was I to know?
- - Tjoneslo (talk) 22:27, 25 July 2017 (EDT)
You will have to use alternate communication methods to read or hear them.
- Not everything comes in forums or E-mail per your preferences.
- I encourage others to cater to your communications limitations.
- And, yes, I get much of the commmunication because you are not available using the methods that many prefer.
- I would love you to hear more by expanding your horizons. That's on you.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:26, 25 July 2017 (EDT)
Jones-Low Conversations (2017)
From your Subject line:
- > There is a reason the other way too. What is your reason?
- The title of Limited liability Imperial Charter is the correct and accurate name, including spelling and capitalization. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:34, 28 July 2017 (EDT)
I have had multiple conversations with FFE in which the term was used with all capitals.
- Both are correct. And both are incorrect.
- Being that the wiki is authorized for both, either one should satisfy.
- Limited liability Imperial Charter is just as correct as Limited Liability Imperial Charter.
- Who is doing canon these days? Who did canon three years ago?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:33, 28 July 2017 (EDT)
- Probably. Link, please.
- And then I probably dismissed it according to the hermeneutic, which is FFE approved.
- Who is doing canon these days? Who did canon three years ago?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:19, 28 July 2017 (EDT)
- Talk:Limited liability Imperial Charter Tjoneslo (talk) 07:45, 29 July 2017 (EDT)
- I suppose I asked multiple times to see if you would respond.
- I can only guess that you and many others do not know who is doing canon now or then.
- FFE has overwritten your discussion with Rancke (RIP) many times over. I loved the intellectual dimension of your discussion. Bravo. You too certainly hashed it out. Not sure if anyone else accepted your conclusions. That's the social dimension.
- I think in the end, it's really about being flexible and inclusive. Very conflictual and frustrating. You have my sympathy.
- Thank you for the link and response.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:39, 29 July 2017 (EDT)
- Is the inner circle organized enough to publish regular findings?
- Published references are not often what FFE does although I admire your faith in it.
- Mostly from conversations with FFE and Inner Circle. Especially Don.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 01:18, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
- Canon is published. The point of publishing canon is to serve the whole of the Traveler community. The players and writers must be able to see, and understand, canon. It serves as the root stock for the many different Traveller campaigns and new materials, allowing both to grow in interesting, but consistent, directions. Ensuring access to the details of canon is not about, or for, me. It is about the wider Traveller audiences. This is a point I've never gotten the impression you understand or respect.
- - Tjoneslo (talk) 17:25, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
- No. Canon is what FFE says it is. Publishing has almost nothing to do with it. That's what the FFE-approved hermeneutic says. FFE is very explicit that whatever it says is canon, not what half a dozen previous, conflicting editions said. Traveller is not the Bible. The primary writer and owner is alive.
- The point of canon is recognize the boss, who then cares for the community. Not your call, and not mine unless appointed by FFE.
- That is a point I've never gotten the impression you understand or respect. Publishers have never accepted the points you embrace. All about FFE these days.
- Who is doing canon these days? Who did canon three years ago?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:32, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
- I'm more than willing to accept your discussion with the rest of the inner circle as deuterocanonical. Provided the relevant parts of the discussion can be posted to the talk pages of the associated articles. This will require permissions from everyone involved; you can ask Don's son for permission about his conversations. These conversations are an important part of the evolution of canon. Most people only ever see what as been published, and usually not all of that. So this represents an opportunity to increase visibility of the process.
- - Tjoneslo (talk) 17:25, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
- I don't expect you to accept anything. I just understand that part of your role is to be a foil in various capacities. A spoiler. You do it well.
- I have asked and I feel assured that it is unappointed role with that understanding, but I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing. I just hope that you'll be open to the fact that today is very different from four decades ago.
- Both Don's son and I are very good. We chat all the time. His widow and I are also very good. I have explicit permission to use just about anything and I drop a line semi-regularly anyway.
- I don't really feel a need to justify myself in any way to you. I already deal with the next authority up so anything between us will be voluntary and mutual. It has been suggested that it may be time for a new wiki master, but I keep defending you.
- I would love to build a genuine relationship of mutual respect with you, greater mutual regard, and very much recognize and appreciate your many contributions over the years, but it's unlikely to happen with the current restraints you have imposed. Que sera, sera.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:32, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
- You weren't made privy to those conversations by the choice of those individuals. Sorry to be blunt.
- I wish you would have because I think you play an important role in the community.
- And your faith in the wiki and leadership of previous challenging situations deserves much merit.
- I don't think FFE is ever going to give you all of the direct instruction and communication that you desire. Me either.
- At some point, you just do the best you can with what you have. Or you leave things permanently unfinished. That's not my choice. I want Charted Space filled out and fleshed out as well as possible. It is happening.
- The wiki already is an important part of that. Mongoose increasingly consults it. Fans love it. FFE loves it. With reservations, of course. And some fans will never be pleased, especially that have you on their hate club list.
- Let it grow and develop. It already has explicit permission to feature materials of various canon levels. Mark them with LEN tags, don't restrict them. Your call.
- I'm done with this chat for now. Thanks for your conversation.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:32, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
- You are very welcome. If you ever change your rules about expanding communication, my door is open. I think it would make a huge difference. Hearing voice inflection changes the nature of communication.
- I will continue to work with you and others to develop the wiki.
- Please consider picking a member of the inner circle or two to be designated back-ups. Sometimes crazy things happen and I don't want you or this resource to be lost.
- I am also looking forward to developing the nobility family trees and methods per Marc's task to us.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:43, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
Gadde subsector and the Network (2017)
Your summary:
- > The network is not designated canon by you anymore?
The Network doesn't go into Gadde Subsector. So why should we mention it in a place where it doesn't exist? Tjoneslo (talk) 11:39, 5 August 2017 (EDT)
Thank you for your reply.
- Thomas, do we actually know where it runs? I've looked it over and other than some vague generalities, I'm not sure we do.
- Do you know something I don't? that would be logical.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:41, 5 August 2017 (EDT)
- Do we have a source for the article The Network other than you and Greg?
- Reading the article, it implies The network is a collection of six different clusters all in the Zarushagar sector, but closely connected.
- Usually for tracking mains and clusters, I use the TravellerMap site, and enable the "mains" option, which highlights them when you click on a world. If we select one or another world we know is on a main or in a cluster, the rest are highlighted.
- Tjoneslo (talk) 20:27, 5 August 2017 (EDT)
No. Just Greg and I.
- Would you be willing to map it to your auto-generated trade routes and make sense of it, please?
- There may be more in HIWG or other semi-canon materials. Marc has canonized some of these materials.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:29, 5 August 2017 (EDT)
Limited liability Imperial Charter (2017)
Please do not move this page again. It has the correct name.
GORT, it is no more the correct name than any other.
- Who are you, by the way?
- Thank you for your note.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 17:16, 12 August 2017 (EDT)
- So, are you Thomas or someone else?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:16, 12 August 2017 (EDT)
Updates to Neubayern-world (2017)
I wrote in the status messages:
- > Please don't add sources referencing the article
This has a typo, it should read: "Please don't add sources not referencing the article". It is a request not to cut and paste sources and references from one article to another unless you are sure the article you are pasting them into is really referenced in the source.
- > And you should fill out the template you put in...
This is another request that when you add the Template: Starport, Template: WorldTech, and Template: WorldGov to an article to set the parameters correctly. Tjoneslo (talk) 08:02, 14 August 2017 (EDT)
Thank you for your note.
- I waited ten years for the wiki to develop many of the articles that it now has. I'd like a similar period of developmental grace while I help work with the wiki team to bring it to the next level.
- Any help you can offer to make things happen would be most appreciated.
- And thanks for finding a typo that I made. I am grateful for your help. I have been correcting many of yours as well as a concrete sign of my gratitude.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:59, 14 August 2017 (EDT)
Template: Trade Summary supports only one category (2017)
As the title says, this only supports one category at a time. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:59, 12 September 2017 (EDT)
Appreciate your clarification. I was experimenting with it and looking at code outside of the wiki. Thank you.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:49, 12 September 2017 (EDT)
Use of Italics in articles (2017)
You wrote in a status message:
- Why are you against italics? It's already part and parcel of several thousand worlds?
This passive-aggressive approach to communication with the other members of the Traveller Wiki community does not foster good communications or conflict resolution. If you need to ask a question or request a clarification, please do so via either my talk page, your talk page, or on the article talk page. Posting them in the status message for your changes means that everyone may miss them, and no one has any way of responding to them.
You use of the italic does not match the standard English stylistic rules for use of Italics. It is in violation of the manuals of style for both Wikipeida and Wookipedia. Finally, your use of the italics within the articles is inconsistent with itself. It is mostly due to this last reason I correct the articles, but also because I'm trying to make the articles look and read consistently.
I am overriding you and ignoring Wikipedia and Wookipedia then. We are Traveller, not Wiki or Wookie.
- I have tried multiple others ways of communicating with you. Let's move on.
- That edit sequence will no longer be required. All of your work is appreciated, but that one may now be left behind.
- Thank you for your contributions.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:35, 24 September 2017 (EDT)
We can find a pattern and develop one. Many of the templates took time to develop. So will this.
- And like all of the good wikis, it will evolve over time.
- I appreciate your patience while we develop the Traveller RPG Wiki and determine its own style.
- I see legitimacy in the points that you make. Thank you for sharing them.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:34, 25 September 2017 (EDT)
- I'm still not understanding the use case here. How does this add to the readers comprehension of the articles?
- - Tjoneslo (talk) 10:20, 26 September 2017 (EDT)
Will have to get back to you on that later. Be well.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:46, 26 September 2017 (EDT)
Thank you for your inquiry. I will get to it in my own time. I have other projects that have a higher priority.
- Thank you for your interest.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 14:27, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
Remember brothers, peace, love and understanding. You are both pretty. Your Friend Ron, the massive pain in the neck.Ronald B. Kline, Jr. (talk) 14:51, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
Thank you, Ron.
- You are not a pain in the neck. Your work is appreciated.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 14:53, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
There are lots of unwritten rules at the wiki. Many of them were formulated under your leadership.
- I appreciate your patience while manuals and other forms of documentation are being formulated.
- Please call me if you desire clarification.
- Thanks for your interest.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 17:45, 1 October 2017 (EDT)
Thanks for your assistance with Sunburst lager 4% & Agalamgur (world)
Thank you for tweaking those two articles after I edited them. I'm still learning the ways and means of this wiki. I am currently trying to locate the Alan Hume posts that Sunburst and Lancer lager came from to see if he included any additional information. Graham2001 (talk) 04:39, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
Always a pleasure. Welcome. Please send me a PM at CotI and we can exchange phone numbers, texts, and emails. I love chatting with new folks and sharing details, giving personalized help, or otherwise learning something from the true Traveller experts!
- Also, thanks for all of your hard work.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:10, 10 October 2017 (EDT)
Utge Subsector - Help with the map (2107)
I've written up a stub article for the subsector that appeared in Morgonstjärnen 4, but the map is not displaying as it should, I'm not sure if I have made a mistake with the setting up of the infobox or if it is something at the other end. Could you make sure that I have not made a mistake.
- - Graham2001 (talk) 22:11, 11 October 2017 (EDT)
Sure. I'll take a look.
- Is there more information about the sector?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:48, 12 October 2017 (EDT)
Not much, just that all the worlds are non-aligned, that the scout bases are 'official', but without making it clear just whether that means the Third Imperium or whatever it was they were creating in the magazine and that the trade routes marked on the maps are "smuggling routes", this is one problem when dealing with something that was published in an early 1980s Swedish Traveller Fanzine.
- I'm only hoping that someone out there has the rest of the issues as I suspect a lot of the questions I have will be answered in them.
- - Graham2001 (talk) 01:10, 12 October 2017 (EDT)
Propblem with Orion (An_0716) (world)
I have just created this article and for some reason even though it is shown in the trade/class that this is the Subsectors capital it is not showing up on the page itself. Could you please double check my coding to see what mistake I have made.
- - Graham2001 (talk) 05:26, 12 October 2017 (EDT)
I think it is the underscore. (An_0716) should be (An 0716).
- Can check.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 06:57, 12 October 2017 (EDT)
Thanks for checking and correcting that little issue with Orion (An 0716).
- - Graham2001 (talk) 07:29, 12 October 2017 (EDT)
You are welcome. Thanks for your work and edits at the wiki.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:30, 12 October 2017 (EDT)
First Imperium and Rule of Man worlds categories for the Spinward Marches/Deneb
[[Category: First Imperium worlds]] [[Category: Rule of Man worlds]] [[Category: Second Imperium worlds]] [[Category: Ziru Sirka worlds]]
These categories say worlds here were part of these empires. But the worlds in the Spinward Marches Sector and Deneb Sector were never settled by these empires nor even explored by these empires. So I'm confused as to why they are being added to worlds in these sectors. Do you mind if I remove them? Tjoneslo (talk) 20:16, 16 October 2017 (EDT)
Please do. I made a mistake. Thanks for catching it.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:22, 16 October 2017 (EDT)
Capitalization of words in article titles.
I'm looking to update more of the unwritten wiki rules in the manual of style, and it contains the following:
- Article capitalization: Unless the name of the article contains a proper noun, only the first word should be capitalized.
I've been trying to create new article following that rule, but since you keep moving them to articles with Initial Capital Letters, I figure we should update the rule. That rule comes from Wikipedia via English language use in articles, so need to at least try to explain why. So do you have a reason or are we just codifying my bad habit of poor naming practices from the early days of the wiki? Tjoneslo (talk) 18:07, 28 October 2017 (EDT)
I think this is subjective thing. I've mainly policed it to keep it consistent.
- We now have thousands of articles and I am not enthused to update one way or another.
- I know what the other wiki does from my days there.
- I also come from an MLA background, which is different from Chicago School...
- I am open to discussion, but the idea of updating everything makes me cringe.
- I already know that the sectors that have been previously entered will eventually need updating. So far, I have pushed forward with newer materials so there is a baseline from which to update /further edit worlds. It's harder to start from scratch than get someone to modify existing material.
- We're partners on this, one way or another, and your opinion is very important to me.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:56, 28 October 2017 (EDT)
I bring up Wikipedia because it is likely, as we attract new contributors, that they, like you and I, will have experience with Wikipedia or other wiki's and their rules for formatting and style.
One of the issues you've brought up to me on several occasions is the unwritten rules of the wiki. So I'm trying to address them by ensuring we're in agreement on what they should be, and make them written rules.
My strong preference is to update the articles to be consistent with the existing rules. This is work I'm willing to take on.
If you find the inconsistency between naming styles for article as I, very slowly, update them, we can come up with a plan to address that to.
But since you are very reluctant to have the articles updated, I wanted to discuss updating the rule in the Manual of Style. Since it would be different from many of the other wiki's which new contributors would likely be familiar with, I would like to explain why.
I am open to change and update, I just dread doing it.
- I have personally entered and updated thousands of worlds, established baseline articles for much of the OTU, and continue to plug away at it. It's worthwhile but time-consuming.
- I really appreciate what you do and that work is invaluable.
- What I want more than anything else is to create an encouraging culture, not the old grognards dumping on each other and newcomers. I would like to see us grow into an encouraging and inspiring community.
- By all means, let's update after we work out a plan together. I think that your goods work is invaluable and any future interstellar economics work will invariably be based upon the foundation that you have laid by synthesizing various Trav versions.
- I am mostly focused on building a community, expanding our possibilities through discussion with the publishers, and laying a foundation to help us link to and expand to the Trav Map.
- That mostly gets channeled into developing new product and supporting those who write it.
- Thank you for all that you do and that you have done. I never what to lose sight of your immense contribution.
- It's mostly the two of us right now, building this thing out. Sky's the limit. All ideas open. I am leaving your goods articles alone the best I can resist since I recognize that you are exploring new ways to do things, and knowing you, they will be better than what we currently have.
- I really don't want to be locked into the ways that the other wikis do things. I've seen a lot of it degrade into crudola.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:30, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
Categories for Rule of Man and Second Imperium worlds?
Is there a reason why we have a two categories for the Category: Rule of Man worlds and Category: Second Imperium worlds? Since they are the same thing shouldn't we have only one category for this? Tjoneslo (talk) 12:11, 18 November 2017 (EST)
Will respond later.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:41, 18 November 2017 (EST)
Same question about Category:Ziru Sirka worlds and Category: First Imperium worlds. I figure we should have one policy for all the categories.
I built in that redundancy to cover either base depending if Marc shows a later preference.
- It's easier to have a choice and put in up front. Much easier to pare down later.
- - 22:44, 18 November 2017 (EST)
I am confused. That does not sound to me to be an ideal way to set Wiki policy. In my conversations with Marc, he always seemed to be an easy going guy. So I'm trying to find a consistent policy we can explain.
I'm running around crazy this weekend (...giving several lectures and a keynote), but I'll kick this out quickly:
- Why not emulate Marc's easygoing nature then? Why not ease up on it yourself?
- Is there nay reason why both can't exist? What are your compelling reasons why they can't? Are those reasons overwhelmingly important?
- I believe in redundancy, accessibility, preservation, and synthesis. Those are values that I express heavily.
- I am also discovering that when it comes to Traveller, I am a structuralist. You have some elements of that thought too. We're both compulsive as well.
- I applaud your effort to find a consistent policy we can explain. Thank you.
- By the way, you did some very neat work with the atmosphere page. My compliments to you. I need to run for now.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 12:40, 19 November 2017 (EST)
This wasn't an immediate problem. So thank you for taking time from your busy weekend to address it.
In addition to all my other fine qualities, I dislike duplication. I find it causes confusion and problems. In this case Category:First Imperium worlds has 2195 articles, whereas Category:Ziru Sirka worlds has 623 article. Similarly, Category:Second Imperium worlds has 2319 articles, and Category:Rule of Man worlds has 2325 articles.
I also dislike solving problems more than once. However we end up solving this, I never want to have to go through two categories with 2000+ entries to find the small set of differences. I absolutely never want to ask anyone else to do it either.
But like I said, this isn't an immediate or pressing problem. I am working on a solution to make simple changes to many articles all at once. So I would like think about this, come to an agreement about how to address it, make sure we never have to solve it again, and fix it once.
Thinking ahead is often a better solution that coming behind. An ounce of prevention...
- Welcome.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:36, 20 November 2017 (EST)
Order of parameters in templates
In Nushilii you reorder the template parameters into alphabetical order. I prefer you leave them in the order the values appear in the infobox. It makes finding and updating them easier. Because the parameter names and titles are not the same it’s hard to make sure the correct field is updated. It also provides a second confirmation of which parameter is being changed. Tjoneslo (talk) 16:07, 8 December 2017 (EST)
Let's re-order the template then.
- And either make the names or titles match or otherwise make it more user-friendly for people not trained as we are, as superusers.
- If you explain how your second confirmation of which parameter is being changed, we can find a way together to make it user-friendly for you, me, and others.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:42, 8 December 2017 (EST)
In Template:Animal, the fields are currently laid out following the recommendations from the T5 Core Rules. How should we re-arrange or rename the fields so they follow your requirement of being in alphabetical order?
The second point is some people use visual layout to track which values go with which parameters. So Body Shape the parameters in display order are:
|size = |stance = |length = |profile = |mass =
Which matches the layout of the final display. So it becomes easy to see and understand that if you fill out the first field in the group, the value goes in the first field in the Body Shape section. The second parameter goes into the second field, and so on. Regardless of the name. So this encourages the less sophisticated users to understand where the parameter values go, and how to match the names to what shows up in the final article. The idea of mapping names and values that can be arbitrarily rearranged is one of those items that confuses new people. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:35, 8 December 2017 (EST)
In that case, just ad a vertical bar in-between section to make it easier to read by eyeball.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:56, 9 December 2017 (EST)
My point is the order of parameters within the group should be in visual order. Tjoneslo (talk) 10:07, 9 December 2017 (EST)
You have my blessing for what it is worth. I want to get along with you. We just think very differently. Thanks for consulting me.
- You are doing invaluable work, which is appreciated by me.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:12, 9 December 2017 (EST)
Thank you for taking the time to consider my proposal. I know you are quite busy. Tjoneslo (talk) 12:25, 9 December 2017 (EST)
Equipment entry text (2017)
Is there any way I can ask you to please stop re-writing the equipment entries. When you spend the time to write entries the results are great, they work well. But these changes are not as great, and I keep putting them back to make sure they look as good as possible for the final book publication. Thanks.
Which are the details you don't care for?
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:23, 18 December 2017 (EST)
It's not a specific detail, but rather the general idea of trusting me to have these entries edited to a good standard. I have these in a good, but not perfect, state and your reverting the changes I find disruptive. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:14, 18 December 2017 (EST)
I absolutely trust you and I will help you compile a master document with exactly your stylistic preferences before you are ready for publication. But I keep the master file here stylized in a certain way based upon a large amount of feedback from publishers, fans, and referees. That's what a master editor does.
- We all agree to the merciless editing that is written into the wiki. Myself, very much included.
- If you want, we can create a daughter publication in the drop box to account for whatever your preferences may be.
- I very much appreciate all that you do here at the wiki. Your legacy is quite awesome and still growing. Thank you.
- I am going to assume that you will want to add entries for image, caption, and mfg (manufacturer).
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:20, 19 December 2017 (EST)
- The entire point of the project is a demonstration the wiki is a source of high quality, publication ready, content. So the wiki is my master document.
- You are telling me the wiki can't support a variety of stylistic preferences?
Tjoneslo (talk) 08:17, 19 December 2017 (EST)
No, I am not telling you anything.
- I am not your boss. I only ask you things sometimes.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:40, 19 December 2017 (EST)
"Merciless editing" should be a rarely used option, not a default state of addressing article changes.
I agree. It's a good thing that I almost never use that option except for with a very small minority of changes.
- Why did you and others establish that policy?
- Otherwise not telling you what to do. Sorry.
- My policy is of cooperation and collaboration with you except where what you do runs over the work of others.
- Badmouthing those with whom you work very infrequently engenders cooperation.
- They are just stylistic differences for the most part, but there is a reason for them.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:22, 20 December 2017 (EST)
- The "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will," line below the edit box comes as part of the default Mediawiki installation, which in turn comes from Wikipedia. If we don't like the statement, and the policy it implies, we should decide what the new statement and policy should be. The text can be updated as needed.
- My problem with your current article style definition is it is too narrow. I understand the desire of people, none of whom are contributors, to have a better wiki to read. But there really can be a broader set of permissible styles for articles that still meets the ideal of a readable wiki.
- - Tjoneslo (talk) 08:09, 20 December 2017 (EST)
Thank you for your comments.
- Interesting to learn the default setting that the original wiki team decided on. Thanks for sharing it.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:06, 20 December 2017 (EST)
Please consider this to be non-confirmation.
- Everything is open to discussion and consideration.
- There are many styles present at the wiki.
- You know how to get ahold of me when you are ready to seriously talk.
- I recommend waiting until you are calm and collected and not focused on hostility.
- Wishing you well.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:31, 20 December 2017 (EST)
- Well that clears that up. Thanks for your feedback. I look forward to working with you further on this project. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:49, 20 December 2017 (EST)
Back at you.
- - Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:50, 20 December 2017 (EST)
Updating the older world articles?
In the T5SS emails you indicated that you had completed the process of creating world articles for all of the imperial sectors. Did you have a plan to update the articles you did initially? For example, the template on Moolly (world), and I'm quite sure the rest of Zarushagar Sector entries, are very much out of date from your current world format. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:49, 21 December 2017 (EST)