Talk:Imperial Marines

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Notes (2016)

I changed the heading from "GFC Ranks" to "Imperial Marine Ranks" to avoid confusion with the Imperial Army GFC, and brought the ranks list a little more into line with CT: Book 4-Mercenary, GT:Ground Forces, and T5 Core Rules while keeping with the spirit of the TO&E text descriptions.

Does Rank O7 ("Brigadier-Colonel") really need the "-Colonel" modifier? This is the first usage I have ever seen of the term. My suggestion would be to simply let O7 be "Brigadier" and change the TO&E text to refer to "Brigadier" instead of "Brigadier-Colonel".

NOTE: I fleshed out the Brigadier-Coronel/Brigadier/Brigadier-General concept in the TO&E section.

Note also that MWM in both T5 and Agent of the Imperium has made mention of the fact that Marines in particular use the variant spelling "Coronel", whereas the Army uses "Colonel".

Rank Structure (2019)

I have often mulled over the ISM for a considerable amount of time. I have found the application in the published literature regarding the rank tables somewhat bizarre. I recommend for consideration the following.

E6: “ Ship’s Sergeant” , reading SST and following the little factoids about Ship’s Sergeants (Zim and Jhelal) having broad sweeping command and administrative authority within there respective units. I think it needs to come down from the E7 grade though on the argument a Gunny is a Gunny. I would opine that the Ship’s Sergeant reflects special niche he would have with regards a small independent Marine Detachment (1-2 ISM squads) on cruises (tours of duty). He acts as a Division/Department Head within the ship’s command structure. A ship’s sergeant would also have to posses higher command and administrative training to operated independently.

E6: “Color Sergeant” (Senior Ship’s Sergeant more of an appointment then rank) as a nod to the Royal Marines. Carries out special ceremonial and protocol duties as well as being the Senior Platoon sergeant within a Company, Troop, Battery or Squadron.

E7: Gunnery sergeant These are your Special Platoon Sergeants for Reconnaissance, Weapons, and other platoon level positions that require training expertise above that of a Staff Sergeant. They are the master trainers in the USMC out side of the Marine Gunners ( Warrant Officers).

E8: Fleet Sergeant Sounds so much better than Master Sergeant and also is mentioned in the SST Novel. Also you could consider eliminating first sergeant as well (way to Americans in space)

(-): Section Leader I like this and the reference to “third lieutenant" but I suggest moving it above midshipman/cadet. SST has a great number of pages devoted to the vested powers and that there has to be a commission and/or warrant legally empowering to the leader to command. “Third Lieutenant” is an awesome way to address it or “Subaltern” is another workaround.

Proposed changes to flag ranks

06: Brigadier Colonel. to Colonel Commandant

07: Brigadier ( Keep it is mentioned in Book 1 , 4 and GURPS-T) - Subsector/Fleet - overall command and administrative authority of ISM within a sector or fleet and is the ISM senior staffer on a Flag Officer’s Staff.

08: Fleet General (quadrant ISM Senior Officer , also in war commands provisional ISM Division Task Force when committed in such a manner for operations. ( probably see a lot of domain and imperial Knights or Baronets) , this is an SST reference as well as it mirrors that divisional/corps level command structure and staff. Rhylanor, Regina, Mora

09: “Commandant-General” - the senior sector level ISM Position 1 per Sector, remember the Imperium really fricking big. (Barons) Mora would be the Commandant-Generals HQ in the Spinward Marches for example... the ISM Flag officer responsible for Readiness, training and in war the senior ISM Staff officer to the Sector Admiral.

010: “Marshal” - Domain Level ISM appointment more of plans and policy for four sectors, and is the service chief representative to the Combined imperial staff at the domain level and Archdukes Administration... very very powerful and prestigious position.

Anyway food for thought BVW

References:

  • JTAS #12 pages 42-46 - by Loren Wiseman
  • CT Book 1: Chracaters & Combat
  • CT Book 4: Mercenary
  • Traveller GURPS: Ground Forces
  • Starship troopers the book ( not the movie)
Happy to discuss possibilities, but I want to keep the ranks and appointments close to published Traveller source material (in some cases a conflation of several conflicting sources across editions). Since the article is describing the Imperial Star Marines in the OTU, I would not consider Starship Troopers to be source material. The rank structure I listed is close to what has been previously published in CT/MT and T4/T5 on the one hand, and GT:GF on the other. I used the 6/7 ranks system of T5 as my basis (the current "canon"), and added in ranks/grades from prior editions (CT/MT/T4 and GT) by expanding the ranks to the prior 9/10 ranks system of the earlier editions and adding in the extras at their appropriate slots.
Though I thought about listing it as an alternative, Colour Sergeant has never been used in any edition for the ISM (though certainly some Colonial Marine forces might use it). I'll think about it as an appointment listing. I placed Gunnery Sergeant as an appointment at E6 because that is where it was originally placed in CT/MT as well as GT, but noted in the descriptive text that it is generally held at E6 or E7 (I was waffling on E6 or E7 myself). I realize that in the USMC above E7 (what used to be Gunnery Sergeant/Technical Sergeant) there is the "technical specialist track" on the one hand (Gunny --> Master Sgt. --> Master Gunnery Sgt., with the Warrant Officer "Marine Gunner" above that) and the staff track on the other (Gunny --> 1st Sgt. --> Sergeant Major grades), but I didn't want to get too granular (or presume that the terms necessarily mean the same things that they do in the USMC). (As an aside, the US Army also has Gunnery Sergeants - it is the title for a sergeant who has been placed in charge of an artillery piece, which is also how the term originally arose aboard ship in the USMC and RM as well over 100+ years ago).
Note also that in CT:Book 4, a Section was lead by an E5 or E6, whereas GT:Ground Forces implies that a Marine Section is led by an E7 based on rank name.
In GT:GF (w/ 9 Enlisted Grades):
  • E5 Sergeant
  • E6 Gunnery Sgt. (= Unified Armies Staff Sgt.)
  • E7 Section Sgt. (= Unified Armies Leading Sgt.)
  • E8 Ship Sergeant (= Unified Armies 1st Sgt.)
  • E9 Fleet Sgt. (= Unified Armies Sgt. Maj.)
T5 Enlisted Ranks (current Canon w/ 6 Enlisted Grades):
  • S1 Private
  • S2 Lance Corporal
  • S3 Sergeant (=E5)
  • S4 Staff Sergeant (=E6)
  • S6 Master Sergeant (=E7 or E8)
  • S6 Sergeant Major (=E9)
I'll take a look at some of the assignments and titles later tonight or tomorrow.

Sounds great.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:19, 21 February 2019 (EST)
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