Talk:Hiver Calendar
OK, I've looked at CT AM7 and the Hiver calendar is totally screwed. The book says Glea rotates about its own axis once in "about 22 hours", a HF year is 143 cycles = 179 standard days. I'm going to have to work this out on a spreadsheet to get this to work. Gruffty Hivers: If you tolerate us, then your children will be next... 13:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The Basics[edit]
OK: 1 Hiver day = 22 standard hours (according to CT AM7). On that basis:
- 11 standard days (of 24 standard hours each) equals 12 Hiver days (of 22 standard hours each) exactly;
- 264 standard hours (or 11 standard days) equals 12 Hiver days (of 22 standard hours each) exactly.
That's my starting point for sorting Teh Hivorz Kalenda Mesz out. Gruffty Hivers: If you tolerate us, then your children will be next... 13:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- Ignore all of the above, I have changed tack to look at the HF year. Gruffty Hivers: If you tolerate us, then your children will be next... 13:10, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The Year[edit]
- A Hiver year = 179 standard days = 4,296 standard hours;
- 4,296 standard hours divided by 22 standard hours (per Hiver day) = 195.2727 Hiver days (of 22 standard hours each).
- A Hiver "day" is termed a "cycle" by the Hivers: 1 cycle = 1 day = 22 standard hours.
- 195.2727 Hiver days/cycles (of 22 standard hours each) = 1 Hiver year = 179 standard days = 4,296 standard hours.
However.... CT AM7 p. 15 states that Glea orbits New Primary every 358 days (i.e. 2 * 179 standard days). Thus the Hivers get 2 years for the price of one. Gruffty Hivers: If you tolerate us, then your children will be next... 13:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- Ignore all of the above, I have changed tack to look at the HF year. Gruffty Hivers: If you tolerate us, then your children will be next... 13:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Slippage[edit]
It looks like Hiver years slip by a year for every 52 standard years. Each standard year = 2 Hiver years + 168 hours (7 standard days). So:
- 1 standard year = 2 HF years + 1 week
- 2 standard years = 4 HF years + 2 weeks
- 3 standard years = 6 HF years + 3 weeks
and so on. Gruffty Hivers: If you tolerate us, then your children will be next... 11:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
- Ignore all of the above, I have changed tack to look at the HF year. Gruffty Hivers: If you tolerate us, then your children will be next... 13:05, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Uh Oh[edit]
OK, so I've punched in the numbers and....it doesn't work:
- 22 standard hours * 143 cycles = 3146 standard hours;
- 179 standard days * 24 standard hours = 4296 standard hours;
- Difference = 1150 standard hours between standard hours for 24 hour days and standard hours for 22 hour days.
Option 1[edit]
Increase the number of cycles in a HF year, but keep a HF day/cycle at 22 standard hours:
- 22 standard hours * 195 cycles = 4296 standard hours;
- 179 standard days * 24 standard hours = 4296 standard hours;
- Difference = +52 cycles against 143 originally.
Option 2[edit]
Increase the number of standard hours in a HF day/cycle, but keep 143 days/cycles per HF year:
- 30.04195804 standard hours * 143 cycles = 4296 standard hours;
- 179 standard days * 24 standard hours = 4296 standard hours;
- Difference = +8.041958042 standard hours per HF day against 22 originally.
Better see what Marc says about all of this... Gruffty Hivers: If you tolerate us, then your children will be next... 13:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Tom Rux Calculations[edit]
Note From Tom Rux The Hiver year in my calculations = 143 cycles. Snrdog 03:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Here is the result of my attempt to verify the Hiver calendar information as presented in CT: AM 7 and conversion formulas presented on the conversion chart of the Date Conversion article.
1. The length of the Hiver year as presented in CT: AM 7 of 179 days does not support the 2 dates that have been converted from Imperial to HF. The Date Conversion article provided a third date which also is not supported by the published Hiver information.
1A. I used the formula HF year = (Imperial year - 410) X Constant where the Constant is equal to 2.0391. The Constant was determined by
- round(365 Imperial/179 Hive,10) = round(2.039106145,4) = 2.0391.
- (Imperial year - 410) X 2.0391
- CT:AM 7 page 2 date: 1111 Imperial = 1401 HF
- My calculations have the date as 1111 Imperial = 1429 HF
- CT:AM 7 page 17 date: -4698 Imperial = -10217 HF
- My calculations have the date as -4698 Imperial = -10416 HF
- Date Conversion Article page 2 date: 1105 Imperial = 1389 HF
- My calculations have the date as 1105 Imperial = 1417 HF
1B. The Date Conversion article uses a Constant of 2 which returns dates that are ± 1 year from the three dates.
- (Imperial year - 410) X 2
- CT:AM 7 page 2 date: 1111 Imperial = 1401 HF
- My calculations have the date as 1111 Imperial = 1402 HF
- CT:AM 7 page 17 date: -4698 Imperial = -10217 HF
- My calculations have the date as -4698 Imperial = -10216 HF
- Date Conversion Article page 2 date: 1105 Imperial = 1389 HF
- My calculations have the date as 1105 Imperial = 1390 HF
1C. I used both dates from CT: AM 7 (pages 2 and 17) and the date from the Date Conversion Hiver section to determine a Constant: To determine the Constant I reworked the Imperial to Hiver formula to: Constant = round(HF date/(Imperial date - 410),4)
1C1. CT:AM 7 page 2 Constant = 1.9986
- Constant = round(1401/(1111 - 410),5)
- Constant = round(1401/701,5)
- Constant = round(1.99857,4) = 1.9986
1C2. CT:AM 7 page 17 Constant = 2.0002
- Constant = round(-10217/(-4698 - 410),5)
- Constant = round(-10217/-5108,5)
- Constant = round(2.00020,4) = 2.0002
1C3. Date converion article page 2 Constant = 1.9986
- Constant = round(1389/(11105- 410),5)
- Constant = round(1389/695,5)
- Constant = round(1.998556,4) = 1.9986
1C1 & 1C3: (Imperial year - 410) X 1.9986
- CT:AM 7 page 2 date: 1111 Imperial = 1401 HF
- My calculations shows that the dates match
- CT:AM 7 page 17 date: -4698 Imperial = -10217 HF
- My calculations have the date as -4698 Imperial = -10209 HF
- Date Conversion Article page 2 date: 1105 Imperial = 1389 HF
- My calculations shows that the dates match
1C2: (Imperial year - 410) X 2.0002
- CT:AM 7 page 2 date: 1111 Imperial = 1401 HF
- My calculations have the date as 1111 Imperial = 1402 HF
- CT:AM 7 page 17 date: -4698 Imperial = -10217 HF
- My calculations shows the dates match
- Date Conversion Article page 2 date: 1105 Imperial = 1389 HF
- My calculations have the date as 1105 Imperial = 1390 HF
Calculations 1B and 1C2 have the least impact on the published dates.
2. Since the 179 day length does not appear to support the listed dates I did more calculations to determine the HF days per year, day length, hours in a total day, and the hours in an interval.
2A. HF in Imperial days per year:
- 1111 and 1105 Imperial Constant = 1.9986, Imperial year = 365
- Days per year = round(365/1.9986,3) = round(182.631,0) = 183 days
- -4698 Imperial Constant 2.0002, Imperial year 365
- Days per year = round(365/2.0002,3) = round(182.482,0) = 182 days
Date Conversion constant of 2 = round(365/2,1) = round(182.5,0) = 183 days.
2B. HF in Imperial Day length = Imperial days/143 HF days
Date conversion article constant 2, 1111, and 1105: round(183/143,4) = round(1.2797,2) = 1.28
-4698: round(182/143,4) = round(1.2727,2) = 1.27
2C. Hours
Date conversion article constant 2, 1111, and 1105:
- 24 x 1.28 = 30.72 hours
-4698: 24 x 1.27 = 30.48 hours
2D. Hiver intervals:
Date conversion article constant 2, 1111, and 1105:
- round(30.72/6,4) = round(5.1200,2) = 5.12 hours
-4698: round(30.48/6,4) = round(5.0800,2) = 5.08 hours
3. Conclusions:
Formula Constant of 2 has the same error of 1 year for all listed OTU dates.
The Hiver timekeeping units appear to be:
- Year = 182.5 Imperial standard days
- Day = 1.275 Imperial standard day
- Hours in day = 30.6 Imperial standard hours
- Interval = 5.1 Imperial standard hours
The only change is the length of the year which changed from 179 to 182.5.
Tom Rux - tmr0195@comcast.net