Forum:Astrography - Mains... and such

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Notes (2018)

I am in the process of trying to map out some of the Mains within Charted Space, and I have several questions...Bear with me….

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I might point out, Steve, that there is a lot of overlap in routes. That's ok. Just be aware that some routes might have multiple different names to different cultures and races. Just the usual Trav chaos.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:32, 30 January 2018 (EST)

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• Yes, I have noted that already. Having said that and looking at the great amount of data that has already been generated within published data and my own efforts there will certainly be a great amount of overlap. 09:02, 2 February 2018 (EST)

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Thanks. Great job.

- 10:02, 2 February 2018 (EST)

2018-01

Lishun Sector lists the Lishun Main, but when I look at TravellerMap I would like to rename this to the Lishun-Gashikan Main because it spans 10 sectors…

1. 25+ systems in Amdukan,
2. 118 systems in Antares – this is an accurate count-
3. 75+ systems in Gashikan,
4. 20+ systems in Gzasfueg,
5. 20+ systems in Trenchans,
6. 237 systems in Lishun, – this is an accurate count-
7. 75+ systems in Mendan,
8. 30+ systems in Meshan,
9. 2 systems in Vland, – this is an accurate count- and
10. 7 systems in Windhorn,

Lishun Sector also lists a Greater Annililik Run as well as the Annilik Triangle, but I can't seem to find any reference in my library to any of these.

A search for the Greater Annililik Run gives you Trojan Reach, Reft, Deneb, Corridor, Vland, Lishun as well as Core sectors. Since this is a “Run”, I suppose it wouldn’t be a J-1 Main, but rather a J-2 route (run). Does anyone have a published reference to this term?

A search for the Annililik Triangle gives you, Vland, Lishun as well as Core sectors, with no relevant Main that hits those sectors. Could we suggests that this is a combination of j-1 mains? Does anyone have a published reference to this term?

I am aware of Annililik Run, the book, but I can’t seem to locate my copy right now. So any help would be appreciated.

My primary reason to post this in the forum, rather than on the Lishun Sector page is because I anticipate further questions as I work way way through Charted Space.

- Ssteve (talk) 15:29, 11 January 2018 (EST)

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I just did a search through the Annililik Run book, but it contains no other references. The book title really refers to the main ship (The Annililik: 600 Tons, J4, M2) and it's travels from Vland to Core. The book itself contains no astrographic data, just a collection of worlds to visit and have adventures on. It makes exactly one reference to "Annililik Run", with the implication it is the trip between Vland and Core.

The book makes no reference to the Annililik Triangle. Tjoneslo (talk) 18:47, 11 January 2018 (EST)

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It's not in the regular material. It's in the unpublished material.

• Will have to dig out the citations.
• One of the authors, not Ward, also mentions it on his web site.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:07, 11 January 2018 (EST)

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http://www.converj.com/sites/gushemege/commentary/annililik_run.html -> has a better synopsis of the book, and a clearer description of the Run itself missing from the book. This entry was written by David Burden, and it's his website. He may have more information directly. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:40, 12 January 2018 (EST)

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Thank you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:09, 12 January 2018 (EST)

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Greater Annililik Run

• Every 4 years a competition, synonymous with the Run, is held in which competing teams have to travel as quickly and profitably as they can from Vland to Capital. Played either as a competition between PCs, or as PCs against referee run adversaries ( Wacky Races in space? ) the PCs keep those deals and jumps coming fast.

Annililik Triangle

• Ships have been disappearing for years, but recently so may have gone that traders are afraid to complete the Run. The PCs are recruited by a world desperate to see trade restored to find out just what is going on.
  • Thinking about the "tail end" of the run as the point of the triangle, widening to about 6 hexes in width at the border between Core and Lishun.; at the rimward end of the Vilani main.

Ssteve (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2018 (EST)

2018-02

Planning on going through Trojan Reaches to Ley Sector (Trailing to Spinward)

• Done!
• Over 4,000 systems so far, with associated mains, clusters etc.... getting to be quite a long list...

- Ssteve (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2018 (EST)

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Through Delphi Sector (6926 systems so far....)

- Ssteve (talk) 16:01, 7 February 2018 (EST)

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Looks great. Thanks.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:06, 7 February 2018 (EST)

1. Antares
2. Core
3. Corridor
4. Dagudashaag
5. Delphi
6. Deneb
7. Empty Quarter
8. Fornast
9. Glimmerdrift Reaches
10. Gushemege
11. Ilelish
12. Ley
13. Lishun
14. Massilia
15. Reft
16. Spinward Marches
17. Trojan Reach
18. Verge
19. Vland
20. Zarushagar

So far; Hinterworlds is next...Ssteve (talk) 11:41, 11 February 2018 (EST)

Hinterworlds is done; 9000+ plus systems; updated the spreadsheet with the "current" names for clusters; posted to G-drive.

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Set up arbitrary size parameters with matching map colorization and updated all sector maps completed:

• Large Main = 250+
• Medium Main = 100-250
• Small Main = 45-100
• Large Cluster = 25-45
• Medium Cluster = 10-25
• Small Cluster = 5-10

14 sectors to go, if I want to include the Solomani Rim into the Second Survey Atlas; planning on printing a couple of coffee-table sized (11x17) limited editions and planning for legal sized (8.5x14) final product at about 90 pages.

- Ssteve (talk) 22:07, 26 February 2018 (EST)

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Ssteve, I used this page for designating my arbitrary size parameters:

• Trade map key

Which rendered out these parameters:

1. Pliabriebl Sector
   1. Greater Mains (Blue & Cyan Lines: 51+ destinations)
   2. Lesser Mains (Green & Yellow Lines: 11-50 destinations)
   3. Micro Mains (Red & Pink Lines: 0-10 destinations)

Thomas put the kibosh on it at the time and I acceded, later updating all sectors except those on the fringes of Charted Space.

I think a system of trade route differentiation is important and I like your work. It's something that needs to be done, but it will require being ready to defy the grognard naysayers.

It's important to differentiate the astronomic (naturally occurring scientific groupings) systems and the socionomic (sophont-derived trade routes) groupings. There is overlap and that's hard for some to grasp.

Two other I might consult are:

• Jump Bridge
• Trade Route

No one has really considered the full affect of jump bridges although Mongoose is on the way towards integrating the ideas.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:41, 27 February 2018 (EST)

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I put a kibosh on this because you were conflating two unrelated things in a way that was ultimately totally confusing for everyone involved.

• The colors and routes generated by the trade map generator are economic in nature, and depend upon the number of sophonts existing on the worlds.
• The Trade Map key shows the volume of trade and passengers, hence the number and size of ships, traveling between two worlds. There is no relation to the number of system connected.
• The Mains and clusters are astrographic, hence physical, in nature. These would exist even if there are no sophonts in the area of charted space.
• Trade routes do not follow the mains or clusters, and have not since the invention of the Jump-2 drive.
• Clusters and Mains do not determine the where the trade flows or occurs. They are only an interesting astrographic feature of the maps.
• I really don't mind the idea of having sizes to the mains, and giving them colors based upon their size or importance. That is an important aspect of generating useful maps.
• Please don't use the Trade map key as a reference for the size and scope of the Mains and clusters. They're not the same thing.

Tjoneslo (talk) 17:33, 27 February 2018 (EST)

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Oh, I almost forgot; the Vilani Main is the biggest one so far...1,000 plus system; is anybody up for a possible source book style write-up (not me!).

- Ssteve (talk) 22:07, 26 February 2018 (EST)

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The Spinward Main is the largest well documented main. None of the other large ones have even close to any canon documentation. And no one has ever fully routed or documented the Spinward Main.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:43, 27 February 2018 (EST)

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I hadn't planned on using the Trade Key Map, primarily because it is economically driven and would (or at least could) have changed since the publication of the Second Survey.

Ssteve (talk) 21:11, 27 February 2018 (EST)

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Tjoneslo, there is overlap in the two measurements, the economic and the astrographic. They overlap. They are not mutually exclusive.

• I've spoken with most of the Inner Circle about this and you are one of the only folks, a distinct minority, who finds it confusing.
• And Steve has come across a very similar grouping on his own. So have dozens of other fans. It makes sense to a majority of the demographic.
• Of course, Clusters and Mains do not determine trade flow, but they are almost a precondition for strong economics since the cost of constructing Jump Bridges is quite high. A bigger connected network makes it possible for greater, more prosperous interstellar economy. And what isn't settled will be filled in by explorers. The Terran-Vilani Wars are a vibrant example of that. Sophonts fill in habitable space. And even uninhabitable space if there is a draw, especially a nexus world (crossroads) draw.
• This is agreeable with AOTI, the novel, and multiple conversations with MWM.
• While clusters preexist sophonts, familial names often come from sophonts. There is a relationship that overlaps the astrographic and the socioeconomic. It's just not absolute or well-defined like most of Traveller.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:13, 28 February 2018 (EST)

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I seem to have explained myself poorly. Let me try again.

• The Trade map key defines a specific set of terms describing the symbology used on the trade maps, which show an economic relationship between pairs of worlds.
• In the Pliabriebl Sector example above, you link to the Trade map key and then redefine the terms. It is this specific thing I'm objecting to.
• Now Ssteve's definitions of mains and clusters is awesome and I heartily endorse the incorporation of them into the wiki.
• Finally if you have any insight into how Mains and clusters influence trade and economics I would be really interested. The only discussions I've ever seen describing the link does so in most vague handwaviest terms.

Tjoneslo (talk) 07:32, 28 February 2018 (EST)

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Tjoneslo, thank you for dedication in helping me to understand your point.

• I showed Steve what had occurred before. What Steve has done isn't much different than what I did.
• What do you see as the key differences?
• What is the specific thing that you are objecting to?
• What are the handwavy things that you believe should be better designed? No argument, just communicating.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:29, 28 February 2018 (EST)

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There is a subtle but important difference between your description and Steve's.

The Trade map key, as I stated above, describes in detail the economic relationships between worlds. It defines terms (like "Cyan Line Main Route"), and and map icons for these details. By linking to the trade map key page and using terms from that page (like "Blue & Cyan Lines") you are proposing, or at least strongly implying, a discussion about the economics, and relations between worlds.

Conversely, if you were linking to a page like Main, and using terms like main or cluster, you are proposing, or implying, a discussion about the physical relationship of the system in an area.

Since these two things are orthogonal concepts, that is related in only the loosest terms if at all, combining the two into one place causes confusion. Adding to the confusion would be your use of the "Blue & Cyan Lines" to describe a "Greater Main". The only map on the Wiki which uses blue and/or cyan lines are the trade maps. Indeed, none of the available Traveller maps use blue and/or cyan line to show mains or clusters. The trade maps used lines of those colors to indicate specific volumes of trade between specific worlds. So using one thing (trade map line colors) for another (mains and clusters) makes people confused.

You understand the differences because you came up with it. But you should take a minute to approach this from the idea of someone who has never see this before.

Finally, the canon definitions of the Mains only make reference to the abilty to travel along them with Jump-1 ships. There are no references, in any version of Traveller rules, in any of the extended published canon, or in the real world economics, that the mains serve as trade routes, and that trade routes follow the mains. If you have any evidence to the contrary I'd really like to see that quoted chapter and verse.

tl;dr -> Trade routes != mains

Tjoneslo (talk) 21:44, 1 March 2018 (EST)

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You are reading a lot into this. I am starting to understand why some of the older contributors told me the stories that they did.

• Yes, tl;dr -> Trade routes != mains
• However, there is overlap between them. The color coding is not the entire line, but it does represent significant portions of it.
• Ever heard of triangular trade?
• I recommend not making assumptions about implications, propositions, guesses, or other things that haven't been said. You are reading a lot into this that hasn't been said. It's the same with your interpretations of T5 that aren't set in stone one way or another. What confuses you does not confuse all or even significant numbers of others.
• (Thomas Understanding) tl;dr -> Trade routes ! [does not] = (Other Confusion)
• Yes, the canon definitions of the Mains only make reference to the ability to travel along them with Jump-1 ships.
• Yes, we are tasked to explore what J-2 mains are called or even J-6's...
• At J-1, a main or cluster basically is a trade route. It changes after J-1...
• TJL: I'd really like to see that quoted chapter and verse.
• Of course, there is very little, in the big picture, that we can quote chapter and verse. Traveller is often veneer when it comes to the nuts and bolts of worldbuilding.
• MWM has tasked us to experiment with these things. He even appointed someone to work on these things and changed out leadership in connection with it.
• TJL: But you should take a minute to approach this from the idea of someone who has never see this before.
• MS: I've learned that I simply don't have the ability to explain things to someone in a heavy-duty engineering or computer programming mindset. They have to be able to redefine their constants to see new code. Otherwise, it's all wasted effort. C+ avails me not at all explaining matters to older PASCAL and BASIC programmers. New ideas necessitate open-minded approaches to changes. Insisting on defining all concepts of Russian into English doesn't work. Some things don't translate.
• Thomas, when you really want to understand instead of your current state of perennial confusion, break down and call me. We will speak voice to voice as two people making a connection, not two faceless and voiceless beings, trying to make an impossible connection, that necessitates a different communications medium. I'll even meet you one of these days and buy your a beer. Your call.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:09, 2 March 2018 (EST)

2018-03

Planning on going through Verge to Glimmerdrift (Trailing to Spinward)

2018-04

Planning on going through Reaver's Deep to Hinterworlds (Trailing to Spinward)

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Not going as well as I had hoped..

- Ssteve (talk) 23:06, 15 April 2018 (EDT)

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No worries. It's not a race. Appreciate what you do.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:57, 15 April 2018 (EDT)

2018-05

Planning on going through the remainder of the Imperium

2018-06

"Publish" a new Annotated Atlas of the Imperium - Second Survey hopefully.

2018-07

Had to put the effort to the side for the last few months. I do however want to get it done...

• I recently started back up again, and am looking through reference material for additional information as I write up the text pages.

- Ssteve (talk) 18:43, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

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Welcome back. Missed you.

• I discovered two new astrographic locations here: Madoc Subsector from this publication: Guilded Lilly 0: The Guilded Lilly

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:45, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

I suppose that means that I'll have to crack that cover as well...Ssteve (talk) 22:08, 13 July 2018 (EDT)

2018 08

Started on getting the overlap on the cluster and mains pages, looking at a bunch of data to add to the spreadsheet... over 17,000 systems so far. The most recent spreadsheet is on Google drive.

Ssteve (talk) 17:30, 2 August 2018 (EDT)

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Thanks for all of your hard work, Steve. It's really coming together.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 17:52, 2 August 2018 (EDT)

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Hello everyone! And hello to you Ssteve! My name is Ensign Phillips (if you have a military background please feel free to refer to me as the FNG :-)). Maksim-Smelchak and Tjoneslo warmly welcomed me to the Wiki a few days ago and, once I expressed an interest in Mains, Traces and Clusters, pointed me in this direction. I wanted to jump in and let you all see an example of what I have started (using Word because so far I am hopeless at modifying the Wiki) in the Daibei and (in a few cases) Reaver's Deep Sectors.

My goal when I started this was to catalogue the various groupings in the Sector at a VERY high level (using only the information provided by the Traveller Map and the Wiki) and not doing anything that might be construed as a violation of canon. The only exception to this is; I took the liberty of naming the Mains or Clusters/Traces (you will see an example of this in my provided example below). I am now also interested in taking the next step and adding these entries to the Wiki entries for both the Sectors and Sub Sectors. Ok, enough talking, below is what I have started, and btw, I am completely receptive to criticism on this as well as modifying/adding to what I am already putting together. Just want to pitch in and help add information to a Wiki about a subject I have dearly loved over the years.

Imperial Mains, Branches & Arms of the Reaver’s Deep Sector by subsector:

Nightrim Subsector:

• The Gerim Trace: A cluster of twelve worlds, five of which lie in the Nightrim Subsector (Kaagin, Saint George, Scapa, Sheffield and Shetland). The remaining seven worlds lie in the Caledon Subsector (Bryn, Doom, Gerim, Kolath, Kurat, Mer and Rock). Four of the worlds belonging to the trace lie outside Imperial borders (Doom, Kolath, Kurat and Rock). The cluster is named for the world Gerim (Caledon, 2416). This planet was annexed in the year 658 from the Kolan Hegemony for a sizable cash grant to the Hegemonic government as well as completion of an X-Boat route to the world.
• The highest population world in the cluster is Saint George with approximately thirty billion inhabitants. The lowest population world in the cluster is Arthur with approximately one hundred inhabitants.
• Worlds of the cluster: Bryn, Doom, Gerim, Kaagin, Kolath, Kurat, Mer, Rock, Saint George, Scapa, Sheffield and Shetland.

That is my format so far, very bare bones but at least it would get an entry on the books so to speak. Please let me know your thoughts and I hope each of you have a great day!

- Ensign Phillips (talk) 11:45, 30 August 2018 (EDT)

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Hello again everyone! Ok, so I couldn't wait! Patience has never been my strong suit. I added The Petzina Cluster to the wiki. I used the Tukera Cluster as a template and tried to stick as closely as I could to it's formatting. Take a look and let me know how it looks and what else I need to do to make it work.

- Ensign Phillips (talk) 18:46, 30 August 2018 (EDT)

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It's good. I'll go over it later and get you going.

• Do you have a CotI account?
• Don't use 'The' in titles, please.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:56, 30 August 2018 (EDT)

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I sure don't, I apologize. I also included the word "The" when entering my data. I will go back and rectify that immediately. I think I got the formatting right. I don't see any red words in all that I have checked. No rush on this Sir, I understand you have a life too. I am just excited to be helping with the Wiki! I'll be logging off for the night after making the corrections so you have a great evening and I will look for your messages tomorrow.

- Ensign Phillips (talk) 20:40, 30 August 2018 (EDT)

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Well, if "The" is really part of the name it is fine to include. For example The Barrens (Al I) Subsector is valid. But otherwise, yes please don't add the article to titles. Otherwise everything looks great. I look forward to more of your additions to the Wiki. Tjoneslo (talk) 21:12, 30 August 2018 (EDT)

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I logged off planning to correct the "The" error on all the relevant pages tomorrow. But it nagged at me like a sore tooth, so I went ahead and took care of the correction just now. I think the Petzina Cluster is now complete. I have a cluster entry and the cluster is now linked to all affected Sectors, Subsectors and Worlds. You may wish to delete the page "The Petzina Cluster" as it is now redundant. Thanks for the kind words Tjoneslo and I am looking forward to fleshing out the Mains et al in Daibei over the next few weeks. Ok, now I am REALLY hitting the sack! Have a great night all. Oh, PS, if you see anything I need to correct or have any ideas on things you would like to add, please let me know.

- Ensign Phillips (talk) 23:24, 30 August 2018 (EDT)

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Maksim is usually the one who does the article reformatting. He as a whole set of templates for each article which he can show to you, and update the articles as needed. Maksim, and some other contributors have a title or two for adding to Template:Sources for the articles they worked on. Think about what yours should be. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:04, 31 August 2018 (EDT)

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Your title can be a nobility card or one of your own choosing. Marquis is usually the most that we allot to a noble unless they have a card otherwise.

• Uploaded your Gerim Trace as well.
• Thanks for your really cool contribution.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:44, 31 August 2018 (EDT)

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My pleasure! Nan, no nobility for me, I work for a living :-)! Thank you so much for uploading my Gerim Trace data. I was going to tackle entering that this morning when I logged in.

• I did take the liberty to edit both the Gerim Trace and Petzina Cluster data so that they closely match each other appearance wise. I also updated all of the mainworlds of both clusters to reflect that they were part of their respective clusters.
• If, after giving these revisions a once over, you approve of the formatting then I will plan on using this format for all future entries on the Wiki.
• Thank you both for your kind words and encouragement. I'll quit bombarding you both with chatter from this point forward as I move forward to getting all the various Mains in Daibei set up. If you see something I need to address of course drop me a line. Take care of yourselves.

- Ensign Phillips (talk) 07:24, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

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Ensign Phillips, may I please create a title for you? It adds to the color of the universe.

• I am thinking "Lead scout astrographer?"
• Your edits look great. Thanks!
• I will review the revisions again. Thanks for the heads up.
• No problem with the communication. I don't consider it chatter. I even enjoy it.
• Do you have a CotI account yet?

- 10:51, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

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Ensign Phillips, looks great.

• Thanks.
• Do you have a CotI account yet?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:47, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

Khakhan Track (2018)

Good afternoon My Lord. First things first. I completed the addition of a new cluster, the Khakhan Track and its one branch, the Diablo Passage. One note:

I did not create a separate entry for the Diablo Passage. Where necessary I just added a line saying the Passage was a branch of the Track. You can take a look at the Reaver's Deep Sector entry, the Drexilthar Subsector entry and the planet Diablo entry to see examples of this. I just did not think we needed a confusing separate entry when every note about it is linked to it's detailed description under the main Track entry. Let me know if that works.

All Sectors. Subsectors and Worlds have been updated with the necessary Cluster information.

I do not know what CotI is so I do not know how to set up and account. Do you happen to have a link or have any guidance on how I set such a thing up?

As far as a rank, Let's go with the Rank Structure for Scouts in GURPS Traveller: First In (p.26). I would be honored to hold a rank of Junior Administrator attached to Imperial Grand Survey Office. That corresponds roughly to the Naval rank of Ensign and is more than sufficient a title for the likes of me. After all, don't want to sully the honor of the Scouts by promoting someone of my questionable character to any exalted rank :-)!!! I think my fingers are done for the day so best to you and yours My Lord and have a wonderful holiday weekend (if you hail from a land where it is one of course)!

- Ensign Phillips (talk) 17:45, 1 September 2018 (EDT)

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Good to go.

• CotI = Official FFE Trav Forum = Citizens of the Imperium = http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/
• It's ok to build out branches or sub-trade routes. Several already have that level of detail.
• Spinward Main
• Junior Administrator, check.
• Thanks!

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:28, 1 September 2018 (EDT)