User talk:Tjoneslo/archive-2018

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This page is an archive of my talk page for the topics discussed in 2018. Please do not edit this page. If you want to respond to one of these issues, please add a new topic to my talk page

Updating Journal of the Travellers Aid Society / Challenge Articles[edit]

I will be updating the Journal of the Travellers Aid Society / Challenge articles soon.

  • How do you want them named?
  • How can we coordinate our efforts?
  • I don't want to complicate the existing gorgeous infobox that you have designed.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:03, 1 January 2018 (EST)
The way they are named is correct -> "Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society <N>" and "Challenge <N>" where <N> is the issue number of the publication. Just like all the other magazines
The "name" parameter in the infobox should be the same. Just like all the other magazines.
Please discuss further here: Forum:Magazines and Periodicals::: Tjoneslo (talk) 20:09, 1 January 2018 (EST)
OK. I am starting the update.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:51, 2 January 2018 (EST)

Updating Starship Types[edit]

Thomas, it has been pointed out to me that the starship types at the wiki no longer matches Agent of the Imperium.

  • Would you be interested in matching up the excellent system here with Agent?
  • Any suggestions or input?
  • Thank you for all of your recent edits, especially the ones fixing some of my mistakes or ommisions that I have not yet found time to address.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:36, 7 January 2018 (EST)

Use the TL template, not TL links please[edit]

Thomas, please explain why how the TL template benefits you in detail?

  • Can't the goods template count the TL for you?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 15:43, 13 January 2018 (EST)

T4 Version Page[edit]

Thomas, if you have the T4 books handy, could you check the following entry, please: [1]

  • I don't have all of my copies handy and I'm not sure where the binding letters (1 to C) are.
  • I have some of the core series filed under NON-CORE BOOKS: until one of us can figure it out.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:10, 13 January 2018 (EST)

Generic Weapon Syndrome[edit]

Thomas, what do you think is the best way to avoid generic weapon and goods syndrome?

  • Thank you for sharing your opinions and advice.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:14, 14 January 2018 (EST)
It's not clear to me what you mean. Can you explain more? Tjoneslo (talk) 19:27, 14 January 2018 (EST)
Non-specific write-ups... Without detail. Very generic entries instead of more specific ones. Named firearms instead of a generic write-up. RonCo Firemen's friend Ax instead of Ax.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:25, 14 January 2018 (EST)
The term "avoid" is kind of tricky. The Traveller style has been to present equipment with a simple description in an authorial voice, that is the generic write-ups so common with most of the equipment (goods, weapons, vehicles). This is encouraged by the various maker systems, especially for weapons and vehicles, within the different versions. Almost all of the canon source material, and a great deal of the non-canon source material, has little or no color text to go along with it.
The alternative you are suggesting requires adding, usually writing ex nihilo, color text for the entries. Examples of color text would include some of the entries in theCentral Supply Catalog or Mongoose Traveller: Central Supply Catalogue. Better examples are included in On the Ground and Personal Weapons of Charted Space.
Based upon personal experience adding color text to entries is a task that requires a dedicated effort. You can do a half-assed job by writing generic color text and cut/pasting it into each entry.
Finding the balance between the wiki mission to present canon as published and using the goods entries to present a more interesting Traveller universe requires a lot of thought and even more effort. Tjoneslo (talk) 03:21, 16 January 2018 (EST)
What is the wiki mission to you?
  • Thanks for your response.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:10, 16 January 2018 (EST)
The wiki has multiple overlapping, and sometimes contradictory, missions in the broader context of serving the Traveller community of players, referees, and authors. So of the missions, the one to provide the canon as written as a guide is somewhat contradictory to your good idea to add more color. So I'm just trying to make sure I get the balance right. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:32, 17 January 2018 (EST)
It's not a worry. I want to understand where it's been before and that's means listening to you with a very open mind.
  • Do you know if the mission is written down anywhere?
  • Thank you for creating the T5SS chat group.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:19, 17 January 2018 (EST)
It's not written in a single place as a list, if that's what you mean. It's implied by the the list of topics on the Main Page, the Manual of Style, Appropriate Articles, What not to post, the various templates we use widely, and the ongoing discussions in the forum. But that's just my impression of the wiki's various missions. Lately, more of the mission seems to be coming from your private conversations with Marc, the inner circle, and various other, external people and groups. So if you wanted to collect the mission statement we could agree on, that would be awesome. Tjoneslo (talk) 10:26, 17 January 2018 (EST)
Thank you for sharing.
  • I will put something together.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:42, 18 January 2018 (EST)

Alasdair Morgan Gunn entry[edit]

Thank you very much for editing the format. This will be a great learning tool for me as I compare your work with what I did.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:02, 7 February 2018 (EST)

Niven Chain[edit]

Thomas, what do you think of this: Niven Chain?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:02, 7 February 2018 (EST)
I think it needs to be formatted correctly. I see nothing wrong with it. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:26, 8 February 2018 (EST)
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:34, 8 February 2018 (EST)

Dagu, and other sectors[edit]

I received an email from you (or at least that what Google says, but for some strange reason it won't let me reply). Did you want Dagudashaag and the surrounding sectors in marked up PDF or on spreadsheet? Ssteve (talk) 08:52, 9 February 2018 (EST)

Sorry, you ending up being my experiment to test the mailing system. I'm guessing the "reply-to" header is set to the wiki address, which isn't active.
Also yes, I'd love to have a spreadsheet with the names for Daudahsaag and surrounds. When you have the time. Thanks Tjoneslo (talk) 14:06, 9 February 2018 (EST)
Not an issue, rather unexpected, but nice to know that I could be of help.
As far as the spreadsheet, Google Shared drive okay with you? with the only caveat that it is a work in progress. I am still working my way through Zaru.

Ssteve (talk) 14:54, 9 February 2018 (EST)

google spreadsheet is perfect, so I can always have the latest update. Tjoneslo (talk) 15:12, 9 February 2018 (EST)
I'll post the most current and share it.Ssteve (talk) 15:36, 9 February 2018 (EST)
Please, if you see any errors to things that you might want to change (names and such); let me know. I'd rather be the one to make the changes needed, rather than trying to reconcile between the different editions. I'll most likely post the "current" copy at the end of each week as work progresses.
Ssteve (talk) 15:45, 9 February 2018 (EST)

Imperium Staple 12[edit]

Thomas, do you know where the file is for Imperium Staple 12?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:26, 14 February 2018 (EST)
We never had a copy of it. Herb, who published issued 1-10, had issue 11 for everyone, but not issue 12. I'm not sure we ever got permission to host issue 11 or 12. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:11, 15 February 2018 (EST)
Ok. Thanks.
  • Do you know anyone with a copy?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:48, 15 February 2018 (EST)
I do not. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:34, 16 February 2018 (EST)
Ok. Thanks.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:56, 16 February 2018 (EST)


Thomas, would you please advise on this world?

  • And check my work. I trust your judgment.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:57, 15 February 2018 (EST)

CT Titles[edit]

Why do you want to have the CT titles in the method you have indicated? What function does it serve?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:57, 23 February 2018 (EST)
It is the correct and accurate title of the book.
  • The correct and accurate title of the book is required for the citations to be correct and accurate.
  • All of the existing citations in the wiki use the correct and accurate book title.
  • Your changing of the titles breaks the citations and makes the titles wrong.

Tjoneslo (talk) 10:59, 23 February 2018 (EST)

Ok. Let's readjust the title to match what you want then. Book 1 or the other title.
  • Correct and accurate should match up across the entire enchilada. Not a halfway job.
  • It would be a good idea to communicate about these things.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:03, 23 February 2018 (EST)
The title of the article in the wiki does not, and in many cases won't, match exactly the title of the book.
  • The article title can be whatever makes you feel best about finding it, and has the correct disambiguation to not overlap with other articles.
  • The name field of the Infobox needs to be the correct and accurate title of the book to allow the citations to be correct and accurate.
Tjoneslo (talk) 11:13, 23 February 2018 (EST)

Page Cite[edit]

Thomas, do you know why the page cite isn't working? What am I doing wrong?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:43, 19 April 2018 (EDT)
Please point me to a specific failure. I can’t find the problem in your recent changes. Tjoneslo (talk) 11:11, 19 April 2018 (EDT)
Citation Missing - Twilight’s Peak.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:12, 19 April 2018 (EDT)
You are using the wrong quote mark "’" vs "'". Use the normal one, not smart quote. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:09, 19 April 2018 (EDT)
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:11, 19 April 2018 (EDT)

Tech Level Comparison Chart/meta issue[edit]

According to Traveller_RPG:Administrators you and Aramis are administrators.

Maksim-Smelchak reverted all your edits on Tech Level Comparison Chart/meta and then slapped a "Allow only administrators" tag on the page. If you are still administrator I suggest reverting the page and removing the block. It smacks of the same nonsense we had over at Rationalwiki where an sub administrator pulled this type of nonsense to "win" his case. The main administrator was not a happy camper when he was informed of this and had the sub administrator "turn in his badge and gun" for what in his view as 'abuse of the system'.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:20, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

I apologize for being offline and not dealing with this in a timely manner. I have removed the edit block to the page. I will re-review the changes this evening and restore the changes as appropriate. Thank you for your understanding while this is addressed. Tjoneslo (talk) 13:02, 6 May 2018 (EDT)

Page Cite Starships[edit]

Page cite is having a challenge dealing with multiple references named Starships.

  • Book 2 is suffering. Thanks for your help with this.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:16, 11 May 2018 (EDT)
Fixed Tjoneslo (talk) 07:55, 11 May 2018 (EDT)
Thank you very much.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 08:07, 11 May 2018 (EDT)

MGT-1 vs. MGT-2[edit]

Thomas, I would like to enter the 2nd edition core Mongoose rule book into the wiki.

  • How would you prefer that distinction between MGT-1 and MGT-2 be made?
  • Thank you for all of your wonderful work with LudographyCite and PageCite.
  • I think that code goes a long way towards building out the citations for authors and fans.
  • We owe so much of that genius to you. Thank you.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 14:04, 13 May 2018 (EDT)
There is an "edition" parameter to the Template:InfoboxBook2 specifically designed to capture this information. You just need to make sure you are consistent about "1st edition" vs "2nd edition". Currently the Template:LudographyCite and Template: PageCite don't use that information to separate books, but could shortly. Tjoneslo (talk) 14:56, 13 May 2018 (EDT)
Thank you, sir.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:25, 13 May 2018 (EDT)

Hfiywitir Sector[edit]

Thanks for all of your updates to Hfiywitir Sector.

  • I'd love to see every sector developed.
  • I appreciate your attention to detail.
  • Is there a reason that you don't care for the (named but no further data) or (dot map provided) references? Do I have that right?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:02, 20 May 2018 (EDT)
I wanted to remove the references to the CT Aslan book and GT: AR2 from the Hfiywitir Subsector articles because there is no references in either book to the subsectors, or any any of the data in the subsectors. So having the references in the articles is (at best) wrong. I don't mind the "(named but no further data)" if it applies to the article. Tjoneslo (talk) 21:45, 20 May 2018 (EDT)
Ok. I am not sure about what you are writing.
  • (named but no further data) and (dot map provided) both seem accurate and were used by the data creators.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:16, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
"(named but no further data)" applies to the article to which is attached. Eaaoel Subsector is not named in CT Aslan, MGT Aslan, nor the GT: AR2 books. So adding them as source to the article is incorrect. Since these books have no other writing specific to the subsector, they should not be listed as references. The Template: Sources serves two purposes:
  1. Inform the readers of the location of further sources of information on the topic.
  2. satisfy our copyright notification requirements.
Tjoneslo (talk) 07:10, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
Those citation styles were set previously.
  • I can see that you would like to change that previous custom.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:16, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
No, I would like to update the source citations in the articles to be correct and accurate. This is a position that I've held since the founding of the wiki and enshrined in the Manual of Style. It was your recent custom to cut-and-paste some set of poorly researched, and in cases inaccurate, set of sources into multiple articles. So I'm fixing them. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:55, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
Your definition of correct and accurate differs from many others.
  • You interpret things in your own way. Many others think differently.
  • You are not making fixes, just editing to your preference, not an objective standard.
  • I really welcome you fulling researching, page citing, and referencing all of the work that you have done.
  • Thank you for your hard work at the wiki.
  • If you'd ever like to reset our relations and get on a positive note, cultivate our common ground, I'd love that very much.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:41, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
If the title of an article or a sentence or more of the content comes from a book, magazine, or other publication, or added by an wiki contributor, it should be mentioned in the source template. If not, it should be omitted. 

Do you have a better, more objective, or more accurate definition? Tjoneslo (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

We'll have to update things as we get to them. Thanks for your updates.
  • There are many things that older school omitted that have now led to new, quality content.
  • Work builds on work. Imperfection is part of a development trend embraced by FFE.
  • Ultimately the goal is to produce content useful to the community. Letter and spirit of the law and all of that.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:19, 22 May 2018 (EDT)
So, no
This is the standard I'm using. When you can write down an objective standard for this I'll use that. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:43, 22 May 2018 (EDT)

Books 1-3 Mapping[edit]

I have been actively mapping out the CT books, starting with Books 1 to 3.

  • The idea is to properly page cite them, reference them, and build a solid foundation for further knowledge.
  • I really want to see the Traveller ideas really well researched so that we can help future development, plus Marc uses what we create.
  • Is there anything missing in your expert opinion?
  • I'm very pleased with where things are going. The atmosphere work isn't done yet, but it's making real progress.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:07, 20 May 2018 (EDT)
I would have started from the other end, with T5, then back to T20 and T4. Marc and the inner circle have the view, and the research inclination, that the later publications take precedence and do their work in that order. That would provide the base set of usable articles for further development.
Part of the challenge here is the later versions, especially T5, impose some methodology, terminology, and organizational changes. It would be best to have those in place first. Then back fill from the earlier versions as needed. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:21, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
Are you interested in mapping out T5?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:24, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

Ronald Comments[edit]

Ronald B. Kline, Jr. (talk) 17:25, 18 June 2018 (EDT)who owns the wiki? Thomas do you pay for this? Do you want to go all canon and purge all the non canon? Was it something I said?

There has been a policy from the founding of the wiki that we accept both canon and non-canon material. Maksim has been working extra hard over the last few months to add more of the canon material into the wiki. But there is no plan or reason to remove or discourage the addition of non-canon material. Do you have a specific concern I can address? Tjoneslo (talk) 18:43, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

Shrinking the Kian[edit]

Thomas, would you please shrink the Kian artwork when you get a chance?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:37, 18 June 2018 (EDT)

Plural acronyms; Notifications[edit]

I replied to your comment on my user talk. — Steve98052 (talk) 15:44, 21 June 2018 (EDT)


Does this version of wiki software notify about replies to comments on others' user talk pages? (But unless you unchecked "Watch this page" you probably get a watched page notification anyway.) — Steve98052 (talk) 15:44, 21 June 2018 (EDT)

There is no specific notification for comments on other people talk pages other than the recent changes list and the watch list. My Wiki home page is the recent changes list, so I generally see everything. Tjoneslo (talk) 18:48, 21 June 2018 (EDT)

Article Advice[edit]

Thomas, how should we do a wiki article for a magazine article:

Keith Parkinson 
Luna: A Traveller's Guide 
July 1984 
Dragon Magazine, issue 87, page 75 

It's something worth remembering...

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:07, 22 June 2018 (EDT)
All of the data in this example is present in the Template:InfoboxBook2 and the Template: Ludography cite correctly formats this information according to an agreed upon format, except for two things.
* The month part of the date. Fixing this requires adding the field to the InfoboxBook2 template and someone (probably you) to go through all of the magazine articles to add it.
* The name of the article author, rather than the editor of the issue. Fixing this requires creating a template to allow adding the article details (name, author, pages, notes), and adding that to the publication articles. I have some better ideas for this, but need the time to work on them.
Tjoneslo (talk) 07:28, 23 June 2018 (EDT)
It doesn't work well for blind readers. Simply adding page/s really helps.
* I have slowly been making adjustments to account for the ADA community.
* Sometimes it's difficult to get past the resistance to change.
* This is from a magazine article to a magazine that we don't have recorded.
* Thanks for working on your ideas. I am sure that they will be great.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:54, 23 June 2018 (EDT)
Do you have a link to any set of ADA standards we should be applying? I know Mediawiki has put a great deal of work into the background process to make the site accessible to screen readers and the like. But I would like to make one change to be completely consistent with standards. Tjoneslo (talk) 18:01, 23 June 2018 (EDT)
No, but I'd welcome your research into it. I've been working directly with affected individuals.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:15, 23 June 2018 (EDT)
Some links I've found for making Mediawiki friendlier for accessability:
My Google-fu has failed to find a recommended citation style. Everyone says to pick MLA, APA, or Chicago (which is what we use here). Tjoneslo (talk) 08:03, 24 June 2018 (EDT)

Sunbane Article[edit]

Thomas, let's fix the Sunbane article.

  • What do you think it should be?
  • I collected that data after speaking to MWM, Inner Circle, Josh, and many of the involved parties.
  • I've so discussed that often when you feel something is wrong that it really means you don't understand it yet.
  • In what ways, do you find the table in error? Let's discuss it and fix it.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:18, 22 June 2018 (EDT)
I updated the Legacy Astrographic Data with a more correct and informative timeline about the publication of the data. Sunbane is part of the legacy publication, and not a significant mile stone. So I'd like to remove the table and revert the article to it's original purpose; a historical footnote about the history of the legacy data. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:31, 23 June 2018 (EDT)
I have been speaking with Josh, MWM, and others.
  • I'll take a look over what you have as well. Thanks.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:57, 23 June 2018 (EDT)
Thank you. Job well done.
  • I'll go back over it later with the notes from others.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:26, 23 June 2018 (EDT)

Sector Building[edit]

Where can we get a break-down of the T5 Second Survey data changes?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 06:51, 6 July 2018 (EDT)
  1. The list of T5SS changes is, to the best of my recollection, contained within the T5 Second Survey article. I did not put more detail on that section because I didn't have access to the precise rules. Marc or Michael may have access to Don's notes. I'm pretty sure they were not always consistently applied. I could probably better derive the exact rules by checking the differences in the legacy data vs the T5SS data, the Traveller Map GitHub repo has this data.
  2. The layout pages are a tool only you use. Can you be more specific about what you would like to have done? What analysis, layout, etc. To be clear, were I working on a project like Gzaefueg I would be using a spreadsheet or other external tools. So I'm really trying to understand what you are looking for here.
  3. I saw your work on Gzaefueg, does this mean you have finished all the T5SS and under review sectors?
-Tjoneslo (talk) 08:16, 6 July 2018 (EDT)
What do you mean by all the T5SS and under review sectors?
  • I don't think so.
  • It would be nice to have tools able to apply the the T5SS rules to the layout pages.
  • Adie, Pakkrat, and several others use the layout pages.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:22, 6 July 2018 (EDT)
That's what I thought. I know that Don was using Access database to keep all of the worlds and process them. Joshua and Marc share an Excel spreadsheet. I've done all of my update work either in Excel or google Sheets. The latter makes sharing easier. Are you just manually updating the Layout pages? Or do you have some tool to check your updates as well?
- Tjoneslo (talk) 19:17, 6 July 2018 (EDT)
I've tried other methods, but I prefer manual work over.
  • I've looked at the spread sheets before, but never got into them.
  • I use Access at work so I don't want to see it outside of work.
  • I tend to slap mine into a Word Document.
  • I've experimented with tools, but I'm not sure what the T5SS parameters are and I'm not so good with GitHub.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:57, 6 July 2018 (EDT)
The only manual tool I know of would be: - the sector linter, which verifies your data is correct. Getting your data out of the word document / wiki and into the format the linter reads may also a manual process. I am currently distracted some from detailed work, but I'll look around some more. Tjoneslo (talk) 12:33, 7 July 2018 (EDT)
  • How do you understand M5 D?
  • And M5 V D?
  • What do they turn into under T%SS?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2018 (EDT)
  1. Per the Talk: Star, the Book 6 generation "XX D" stars should be "XX V" stars. So M5 V.
  2. This is a Binary star system. This should be a M5 V BD
Tjoneslo (talk) 07:36, 8 July 2018 (EDT)
Thanks! I wanted to verify that we are on the same page about this.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:26, 8 July 2018 (EDT)

Image Upload[edit]

Thomas, I have uploaded a number of smallcraft and ship images over the past few days.

  • Please give feedback if you have other ways you want me to document or things that I am missing.
  • The following three pages have images that I had difficulty re-sizing to fit the infoboxes. It appears that an image around 200 x 200 fits the infoboxes well.
  1. Type P class Corsair
  2. Gazelle class Close Escort
  3. Type CE class Close Escort
  4. Gig
  • Please give those images an editing effort and see what you can do with them.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:32, 8 July 2018 (EDT)
I would ask please add a {{Ludography cite|...}} to the image pages so we can find the location of the images in the publication. This information is in the title, but requires deciphering.
I'll work on the images. I've generally found that a maximum size of 250-350px (width) works well. Most of the book cover images are in this size. Tjoneslo (talk) 11:59, 8 July 2018 (EDT)
Thank you very much. A ludo cite is do-able.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 12:20, 8 July 2018 (EDT)
Added ludo cites to all images. Thanks for your generosity and assistance.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:43, 9 July 2018 (EDT)

Sortable Ship Summary Lists[edit]

Thomas, is it possible to make sortable ship summary lists?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:56, 8 July 2018 (EDT)
Does this look better now? Tjoneslo (talk) 18:43, 8 July 2018 (EDT)
Yes, thank you.
  • Can it be defaulted to start with 100 entries?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:52, 8 July 2018 (EDT)
In theory it has been set to do so. I'll need to investigate why the setting does not work. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:31, 9 July 2018 (EDT)
Thank you.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:04, 9 July 2018 (EDT)

Gionetti vs. SEH[edit]

Thomas, I read through the notes that you and Rancke left and I am not sure what you two want.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:22, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
I'm not finding where you got the text for the SEH class, but it is essentially correct. The original Gionetti is a book 5 / Fighting ships design. The SEH class is MT ships design. The problem is the MT ship design is an extension of the Striker design system, then tweaked to allow the (essentially) the ACS ships (under 1000 tons) to match in capabilities of the book 2/book 5 designs. There is an article in the one the Traveller Digests explaining the design system changes to make this happen. But once you get larger than this, the MT ship design system breaks badly when trying to replicate ships from the earlier Traveller version.
There are, from later builds, a better understanding of how to optimize ships using the MT designs system (e.g. use two power systems, one for life support/maneuver drive, the second for weapons).
Long answer short: This is one of the canon conflict problems. The text in the SEH class looks like Hans' attempt to resolve the conflict by simply handwaving and saying both versions are wrong. And since there isn't a T5 BCS design system to resolve this we'll need to pick one of the three options (Book 5 design, MT design, Neither). My preference is to select the Book 5 (Gionetti), and drop the SEH class except as a foot note.
Also the pictures of the Ghalalk class Cruiser (Fighting Ships) and the Planet class Cruiser (Rebellion Sourcebook) look close enough to have the same concern. Tjoneslo (talk) 23:16, 14 July 2018 (EDT)
Thank you. I thought that was the case.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:09, 22 July 2018 (EDT)

Sources Template... Numbered[edit]

Thomas, can we change the {{Sources template to numbering instead of bullets?

  • That would make it much easier for me to update as I compare the sources with metadata tracking by years.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:09, 22 July 2018 (EDT)
This, I feel, is too large of a change to make without discussion: please see. Forum:Sources template layout. Tjoneslo (talk)
OK. Thanks.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 17:09, 22 July 2018 (EDT)

Updates to Letter Templates[edit]

Thank you for your updates to the category (LE, LEN, LEA, etc.) and letter (A, B, C, etc.) templates. It's noticed and appreciated.

  • Is there anything special that these updates will do past what has been mentioned?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:28, 22 July 2018 (EDT)
Mostly this was to fix setting a specific category for the entries that began with non-alphanumeric characters. There is some weirdness in the underlying processing because of HTML and PHP. I selected "?" simply as a quick choice and am open to other options. The other updates were to make fixing that choice easier. Tjoneslo (talk) 21:06, 22 July 2018 (EDT)
Thank you.
  • If you get a chance, take a look at Alpha Crucis Sector, it appears that one world was added and another removed since I input it around 2015 CE.
  • Something is now off. Auva Subsector has an extra world, which means, most likely, someone else had one removed.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:47, 22 July 2018 (EDT)

Shrinking Ian's Type P[edit]


  • Could you shrink it to 400x400 or smaller as you see fit? Please.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:45, 30 July 2018 (EDT)

New Traveller vs. MGT-2[edit]

Thomas, what do you think about New Traveller versus Mongoose second Edition?

  • I strongly anticipate there being a third edition sometime.
  • Thanka for all of your hard work. Great additions and research.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:52, 10 August 2018 (EDT)
None of the Mongoose materials makes any reference to "2nd edition", MGT-2, or any similar kinds of language. I chose the "New Traveller" name because, as the link on the page goes to, that is the name used by Mongoose and their marketing materials. Us using "2nd Edition" simply adds confusion because there is no text on the Mongoose site or materials that calls their books second edition. So I'm deferring to Mongoose's public available terms for their books.
If you are pretty sure there will be another edition of the rules, please mention this to Matt. Tjoneslo (talk) 22:55, 10 August 2018 (EDT)
Ok. Matt has mentioned it before, but I'm happy to go with it.
  • Just checking in then.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:50, 11 August 2018 (EDT)


Why is "NOCACHE" in place at Lishun Sector?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:01, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
It was part of the experiment to get the Template:SectorWorlds3 to page correctly. It can be removed. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:46, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
Thank you.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:48, 24 August 2018 (EDT)

Trenchans Sector Regeneration (2018)[edit]

Thomas, would you please regenerate Trenchans Sector?

  • Its subsectors are pretty mixed up.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:19, 24 August 2018 (EDT)
It looks fine to me. The problem seems to be only some of the subsectors have articles. And when you add new articles, it may take a few minutes for the background job to re-generate the affected pages. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:19, 25 August 2018 (EDT)
Ok. thanks. I remembered that there was an autogeneration sequence previously.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:08, 25 August 2018 (EDT)

TFX and PDF creation[edit]


I would love to improve TFX for the wiki, so it can generate every subsectors worth of data, but would appreciate any assistance you guys could provide.

Small improvements can automate the whole process to a double-click per system.

Notes on areas to work on are placed in

These issues would need fixing in TFX (NOT TCR) to get major improvements to the whole program.

I know Open Office can also be automated in Java, but have no experience with it. Do you have any?

At the current rate of creation, It could take years to create all data for the Imperium and surrounds (1000+ subsectors?). It has take ages to create the first 10%.

Or do you know anyone willing to assist?

Thanks for allowing me to contribute!

MaggotIISS (talk) 08:04, 17 September 2018 (EDT)

I have been following the output side of this with interest, but not looked into the generation side. I'm quite sure we could improve the process. But I would need a deeper dive into the program and the process to be able to offer anything more than the most basic of advice. If you want do do that, we should do that outside of the wiki.
A quick look (via google) at Open Office shows there is an Open Office API usable in several languages (including Java). But if I understand the process it is program is generating a OO doc, which is then printed to PDF. I know there are ways of generating PDFs directly from Java. Tjoneslo (talk) 08:56, 17 September 2018 (EDT)


Open office needs an old JRE installed, haven`t tried it out. Issues in TCR/issues on github. HAD TO MENTION ISSUES INSIDE TCR REPO, BECAUSE I CLOSED TFX FOR BACKUP REASONS. IT WORKS! Only 3(?) problems with orbital map creation & UWP graph. Bugs just need chasing down to fix. MaggotIISS (talk) 14:26, 17 September 2018 (EDT)

<SEC>/_LGE folders contain full page pics split up by subsector. Approx 50Mb per sector split into 16 files! MaggotIISS (talk) 11:42, 17 October 2018 (EDT)

Woomera (Da 0114) (world)[edit]

Thomas, do you have an idea why Woomera (Da 0114) (world) is counting twice at Woomera Subsector?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:35, 5 October 2018 (EDT)
I saw this, looked at the problem, though I had solved it, then completely forgot about it. I just took another look and fixed Petzina (world)‎‎ so it no longer shows up in the subsector list. Root Cause: Don't use Template:World in the world articles except for the world name in the infobox template. Always only use Template:WorldS to refer to outside worlds. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:50, 14 October 2018 (EDT)
Thanks for your assistance.
  • I think I did that several years ago.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:53, 14 October 2018 (EDT)

Subsectors with Parentheses[edit]

Thomas, do you have a fix for the subsectors with parentheses yet?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:18, 14 October 2018 (EDT)
I am unclear as to the problem. How is this currently broken? Tjoneslo (talk) 07:15, 14 October 2018 (EDT)
If not, I have an idea. We can take those subsectors and rename them to remove the parentheses as if a sophont misspelled or misunderstood them, an easy thing to do in a universe with many cultures and sophonts.
* e.g. Gulf (RD D) Subsector → Gulf Rada Subsector
* e.g. Edge (Da A) Subsector → Edge Daa Subsector
Do you have a better fix? Feedback, please?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 05:43, 14 October 2018 (EDT)
I will admit the "(XX N)" was a quick and technically oriented fix. I don't like your suggestion because there isn't always an obvious way to generate the links. For example, Traveller Map generates links to the world, sector and subsector articles for more information. So the "RD A" to "Rada" isn't an obvious mapping. Admittedly there are not a great many disambiguations needed, so having a manually curated list is not huge deal. It's also not clear the Subsector has been renamed for Disabiguation purposes, rather than a (non-)canon name change for another reason.
An alternative I might suggest would be to append the Sector name: <Name> Subsector (<Sector>)
Example: Gulf (RD A) Subsector -> Gulf Subsector (Reaver's Deep)
Example: Edge (Da A) Subsector -> Edge Subsector (Diabei)
Tjoneslo (talk) 07:15, 14 October 2018 (EDT)
The world counting code won't work with the parentheses. We have been discussing it for years.
  • You were previously looking for a solution.
  • I want it to work, not be obvious. We can write that into the background story.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:18, 14 October 2018 (EDT)
I recall the Template:ClusterWorlds and Template:SectorWorlds2 not returning correct counts/worlds because of DPL limitations, or articles containing bad formatting. But I don't recall any discussion of where the subsector names were the source of the problem. I've done a search through my talk page, the template talk pages, and the forum but still can't find anything. Do you have links or a longer summary? Tjoneslo (talk) 07:37, 14 October 2018 (EDT)
Perhaps I have the details wrong.
  • At any rate, do you have an idea how to make cluster worlds work with the parenthetic subsector names?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:42, 14 October 2018 (EDT)
Ah. Some experimentation shows you are correct. The Template:SectorWorlds2 and Template:SectorWorlds3 do not work with the Gulf_(RD_D)_Subsector. And this is due to internal weirdness with the DPL process. I have a solution for this. I'll work on fixing that now. No changes are required to the articles to make this work. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:17, 14 October 2018 (EDT)
And Fixed. Please point me to any specific examples you don't feel are working correctly. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:32, 14 October 2018 (EDT)

Thank you.

  • Can't think of anything else at this time.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:29, 14 October 2018 (EDT)

Kokirrak Image[edit]

Thomas, can you fix the Kokirrak Image, please?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:15, 19 October 2018 (EDT)
You have uploaded two Kokirrak images. One is the Partial one in the article, the other is a badly distorted one.
File:Kokirrak-PARTIAL-IMAGE-Fighting-Ships-Pg-43 05-Sept-2018a.jpg
File:Kokirrak-BRIDGE-Fighting-Ships-Pg-43 05-Sept-2018a.jpg
Neither is fixable in the sense of making into a good image for the article. I would go back to the original document and re-scan the image in its original aspect ratio. So try this image instead.
File:Kokirrak battleship.png

Thank you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 08:13, 20 October 2018 (EDT)

InfoboxSector Subsector Listing[edit]

Thomas, InfoboxSector has the following code:

|ss1 = [[|]]
|ss2 = 
|ss3 = 
|ss4 = 
|ss5 = 
|ss6 = 
|ss7 = 
|ss8 = 
|ss9 = 

Can we change that to have letters that correspond with the subsectors?

  • It's confusing to our volunteers since the numbers correspond oddly with the letters.
  • It would look like:
|ssA = [[|]]
|ssB = 
|ssC = 
|ssD = 
|ssE = 
|ssF = 
|ssG = 
|ssH = 
|ssI = 
  • Please let me know if you are willing to take the task on. I can tackle it if you are unavailable
  • Thanks for your hard work at the wiki!
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:10, 26 October 2018 (EDT)
This option is already there. Just a little hidden. The parameters are in lower case:
|ssa =
|ssb =
 and so on
|sso = 
|ssp =
Tjoneslo (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2018 (EDT)
Zhiaqrqiats Sector was uploaded incorrectly and now it's stuck until you reload the masters.
  • How do I better explain that?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:29, 26 October 2018 (EDT)
Two things:
1. Once you correctly create the subsector articles with the InfoboxSubsector<X>, you no longer need to have the ss1..ss16 or the ssa..ssp parameters in the InfoboxSector. The wiki correctly populates the fields from the subsector page references. And it is probably better if you don't include the parameters at all.
If the subsector pages don't exist, and the parameters are not include, the subsectors should show up as "Unknown" and we'll know to fix them. So I'd really like to remove the "ss" parameters (either kind) from all the sector articles.
2. If you create/change the subsector articles (change their names, update their positions), you need to go back to the sector page and select the more > purge cache option. This will force everything to update.
Tjoneslo (talk) 12:56, 26 October 2018 (EDT)

Thank you for your help. I understand now.

  • Appreciate you.
  • I'll begin removing that code and ask other volunteers to do the same.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 13:57, 26 October 2018 (EDT)

Minor vs. Variant Races[edit]

What do the terms mean to you, Thomas?

  • To me a minor human race and minor non-human race are both subsets of minor race.
  • The minor part just refers to FTL jump engine acquisition.
  • Variant races can also be human or non-human, bit also function as subsets of minor or major.
  • The variant part is about origin. FTL is another matter.
  • Minor/major is about technological development.
  • Variant is about origin.
  • How do we understand these things differently?
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 14:04, 26 October 2018 (EDT)
The types for the races are as follows, with definitions:
  • Major Race: The difference of Major and Minor races is empire building. Major races build major empires. Minor races do not. It's also defined by the Traveller canon. There are six major races (Aslan, Droyne, K'Kree, Hiver, Humaniti, Vargr) according to Marc. No more. No less.
  • Minor Human Race: This is a special category. The MHRs were spread, and in many cases geneered, by the Ancients. They are, as the name implies, derived from Terran humans thus making them a Major race. All of the MHRs should be either Human Chimera or Human Ethnic Groups, but we put them into their own special group because of canon.
  • Minor Race: Any race that isn't a major race is, by definition, a minor race. All minor races are non-human. So I prefer the more compact "Minor Race" rather than the redundant "Minor non-human race". The implication here is a race that has naturally evolved, or at least not artificially altered since the time of the Ancients.
  • Uplift Race: This is a Minor race that has been geneered / breed from beast to sophont by another sophont race after the era of the Ancients. Example are: Dolphins, Ursa, Pr't.
  • <X> Chimera: This is a geneered or otherwise artificial variation on an existing race (major or minor). Like the uplift races, it refers to races modified after the era of the Ancients. Example: Jonkeereen (Human Chimera).
  • <X> Ethnic Group: The difference here is mostly sociological. Ethnic groups are self-perpeutating and self-identifying. The Aslan Clans count as Ethnic Groups. Many of the variations on the Vargr are Ethnic Groups. Additionally there may be morphological changes from the base race. For example size, mass, skin, hair, or fur color, eye color, and so on. But the Ethnic groups can interbreed with the base race. Sometimes refereed to as a culture or cultural group
I dislike the term "Variant Races" because its too vague. I'm guessing it supposed to refer to Chimera and ethnic groups.
I dislike the term "Sub-Race", "Subspecies", or variations because it has pejorative implications.
Am I missing anything here? Tjoneslo (talk) 23:16, 26 October 2018 (EDT)
I have brought this question to Marc and he is considering it.
  • Subrace is not pejorative in a purely hard scientific application.
  • It can be considered pejorative in a social science, identity politic s fashion.
  • The use of ethnic group is not accepted by all of the community in this application and I find few fans ho understand it this way.
  • More modern genetic and evolutionary usage discusses epigenetics, clades, phenotypes, genotypes, and other such terms. I implemented such a system almost two years ago and you had serious reservations about it, prohibiting me from using it.
  • And now, you are going through the sophont entries, removing much of that older data. I am compromising with a simpler entry based on the basic AAB article format.
  • The simpler AAB article for sophonts has four heading under the synopsis:
    • Description (Specifications)
    • History & Background (Dossier)
    • Worlds & Sectors (Astrography)
    • References & Contributors (Sources)
    • Any number of subheadings can be added under those main headings including the older epigenetics subheading entries, which you didn't delete.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:05, 10 November 2018 (EST)
See Category talk:Minor Human Race. According to this discussion about "Variant Human Race" the T5 canon has defined as "Human Chimera". So I'd like to drop the old term/category in favor of the new one.
The objection I have to your layouts was the "No Information Available" data under them, not specifically to the headers. This is an objection I raised since the first day you started the practice. Please see Forum:Visual Clutter.
I took your idea about the headers and created a set of section headers that better fits the Sophont's articles rather than the generic AAB style. I rather liked the older style for the basic article.
I have been stripping all of the headers out of articles where we have very little content. I continue to assume that a Template:Basic is still a valid article style. We had an inconclusive discussion about this for the equipment articles, where the same idea applies. If the article has, at most, a paragraph the AAB standard headers don't add any useful information.
Sophont review project status: I have one last data source, the Traveller Map sophonts list, to finish reviewing. I want to make one last pass through the articles to update the templates to a consistent style for data analysis. Then I'll finish the new Sophtont data template. Tjoneslo (talk) 08:51, 11 November 2018 (EST)

Theta Borealis Sector[edit]

Hi Tjoneslo, hope you're good. As you may have noticed, I've been working on developing some sectors on the spinward-coreward edge of charted space (Mavuzog and Harea so far) and I'm looking to bring Theta Borealis Sector (an official sector originally developed by Group One) up to a similar standard. Only 5 worlds have articles to date, which just ain't right. Is this going to be ok, are there any issues I should be aware of? Your advice and words of wisdom are always appreciated, and as such I wanted to run it past you before I made a start.

Alagoric (talk) 13:57, 8 November 2018 (EST)
I don't have any additional advice beyond the things you have already been working on. The original Group One publication has been delegated to Apocrypha. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:54, 8 November 2018 (EST)
Actually, Traveller Map lists the Theta Borealis Sector Data as "In Review", which means at some point it is likely to get the T5SS treatment and some vetted version of the data will become official.
--WHULorigan (talk) 22:35, 8 November 2018 (EST)
Re "In Review" status - that has been put up coz I'm reviewing and updating the data before adding the Wiki articles. Apologies, didn't exactly make that clear. Prior to my taking it on, the sector's status was "Official".
Alagoric (talk) 02:16, 10 November 2018 (EST)
My question was more about the status of the text in the book. To my knowledge the copyright of the Group One books is still owned by someone other than Marc, and we don't have permissions to use it. The status of Apocrypha means we need to mark any text we do use as {{LEN}}. So are you just using the Stellar Data? or are you planning on including more stuff than that? Tjoneslo (talk) 08:02, 10 November 2018 (EST)

Thomas, I will double check with Marc. The last time, we discussed this was about a year and a half ago, and, at that time, he owned all Group One materials outright. I can confirm.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 08:53, 10 November 2018 (EST)
Thank you. At the moment, I'm working through Gas Giants and Planetoid Belts. The extant data doesn't match the original Group One book info in terms of the presence of gas giants within systems, and there are consistently more planetoid belts in a system than gas giants.
It looks as though the BG part of the PBG data is reversed - I know the data order of planetoid belts and gas giants was swapped after MegaTrav, so I'm putting it down to an error originating from that change. But, planetoid belts have been capped at 3 (matching CT Scouts and MegaTrav system generation), so *if* planetoid belt data is actually GG data, there's no way of telling if the system actually had more than 3 gas giants.
But, no biggy. The best approach seems to be to get the GG presence to match the original Group One book, then swap the PB and GG values around, which gives a much better PBG balance within a system compared to other sectors. In cases where a system ends up with 3 gas giants (or should have them but no planetoid value exists), I roll against the Gas Giant numbers rules (T5 v5.09 pg 408 4g) and either implement or update the data, you get the idea I'm sure. Actually, its a lot easier to do than I make it sound, and it's fun to get actual dice involved. Old school!
- Alagoric (talk) 02:16, 10 November 2018 (EST)

Gravity & UWPexpand[edit]

Thomas, I wanted to compliment you about the gravity addition to Template:UWPexpand.

  • It really turned out well. A few fans have already passed on compliments about it.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 08:48, 17 November 2018 (EST)

New User Dragon Fly[edit]

Thank you Thomas for the greetings. At the moment I'm just poking around seeing how things are done. If I notice an obvious mistake I'll correct it. If there's ones I am not sure about, should I put a note on the author's talk page, or the discussion page for that article? Thanks.--Dragon Fly (talk) 23:25, 18 November 2018 (EST)

For poking around I recommend the Manual of Style to give some good guidelines.
The general guideline is if your question or comment is about the article itself, put the notes on the article discussion page. If you have a question or comment about several (related) articles, or just in general, put the notes in a new topic in Forum:Watercooler. The user talk page's are generally reserved for specific questions or comments to the user. Although my and User talk:Maksim-Smelchak talk pages are used for more general discussions as well.
Maksim is usually right on top of any changes and will offer corrections or guidance. But if you have questions one of us is usually around. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:16, 19 November 2018 (EST)

JTAS Online Pages[edit]

User:Tjoneslo and User:Ssteve, do either of you intend to continue or complete these pages:

  1. JTAS SJG 2000
  2. JTAS SJG 2001
  3. JTAS SJG 2002
  4. JTAS SJG 2003
  5. JTAS SJG 2004
  6. JTAS SJG 2005
  7. JTAS SJG 2006
  8. JTAS SJG 2007
  9. JTAS SJG 2008
  10. JTAS SJG 2009
  11. JTAS SJG 2010
  12. JTAS SJG 2011
  13. JTAS SJG 2012
  14. JTAS SJG 2013
  15. JTAS SJG 2014
  16. JTAS SJG 2015
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:49, 15 December 2018 (EST)
I will not have time to do much more than administrative work on the wiki until the new year. I'll talk to you in January Tjoneslo (talk) 07:08, 18 December 2018 (EST)

Thanks. Enjoy your holidays and New Year.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 08:32, 18 December 2018 (EST)
Enjoy your holidays. Tjoneslo (talk) 18:44, 18 December 2018 (EST)