User talk:Alagoric

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Welcome[edit]

Hi, welcome to Traveller! Thanks for your edit to the Adie Stewart page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Tjoneslo (Talk) 23:12, January 6, 2013

Distant Fringe[edit]

Thanks for your addition of the Distant Fringe articles. This looks like a really interesting setting with background and a good source for adventures.

Please let me know if there are any wiki setup you need to make these articles better for you. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:41, 19 June 2017 (EDT)

Notes (2017)[edit]

Alagoric AKA Adie, I love your stuff. Thank you. Josh has already uploaded it to TravMap.
Thomas, when we get the full set from Josh, we can build it out using the wiki utilities.
It is found rimward (galactic south) of Solomani space.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 23:05, 19 June 2017 (EDT)

Rename pages by moving them[edit]

It is a request of the wiki that if you need to rename an article, like Futhun (world) to Fethun (world), please use the move page function. You can find it in the menu at the top of the articles, under the More option. This request has several advantages for everyone; it keeps the page history with the page, it moves the talk pages and sub pages for you so you don't forget them, and creates the redirect pages automatically. Thanks Tjoneslo (talk) 07:07, 18 July 2017 (EDT)


Thank you, didn't know about that. Shall do.

Alagoric (talk) 12:16, 18 July 2017 (EDT)

Page Entry (2017)[edit]

Adie, thanks so much for your hard work entering worlds in Antares Sector.

Let's chat later and I'll show you some tricks and strategies to get things done quickly.
Here's the layout page that I use to develop Antares: Antares Sector/layout data
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 03:12, 30 July 2017 (EDT)

Most kind, no problem, I was looking for some examples to follow re developing stuff - the Imperial coreward border was very much a random choice just to get a feel of layout etc. I was (genuinely) surprised to find so many blank Imperial worlds. Well, tackling something else builds up confidence and know-how, its good to have a bit of a change every now and again just to keep things fresh, plus it adds to the Wiki too. Hence the system data. Of course, I'm very happy to add, delete or change any entries as necessary or requested.

Thank you for the layout data, very useful. Also, your (many) templates are great, I'm getting the feel for them much more now, they're an excellent toolkit. My biggest problem with them is that there's such a plethora it is sometimes difficult to be sure of exactly which ones I should be using.

Thanks also for sorting the references etc. I'll implement that.

I think now my major problem is going to be my slightly o/c nature - I'll have a mindworm going if there are systems in Antares with no entry at all. Fortunately, I have both the time and the compulsion to get it done. Shall try and give you a shout later.

Alagoric (talk) 04:03, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
About 80% of the Imperial worlds are blank entries. This is Maksim's work to encourage people to contribute. The Spinward Marches Sector, Deneb Sector, and Dagudashaag Sector have all the worlds populated with content. I also recommend the Manual of Style/world and the other entries in the Manual of Style for layout of articles. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:54, 30 July 2017 (EDT)

Excellent, thank you. Exactly what I was after. It would be good to get that % down a good few points.
- Alagoric (talk) 08:47, 30 July 2017 (EDT)

I use a slightly different template and created most of them after Thomas modified them to his preference.
Human psychology dictates that few people will either start or end an entry (...like cartons of milk), but many people will contribute to one if it's already there.
My strategy of making it easy for people to contribute keeps proving itself a good one, entry after entry. New users like you keep contributing and some users only like to contribute ceratain subjects such as economics, or military forces.
Again, I have this down to a solid practice. Instead of the one sector entered every three to four years, I get one or two sectors entered a month on average.
By content, Thomas has a very specific meaning which is at odds with almost all Traveller documents, which typically give a very sparse set of data, just a UWP and little else.
The Spinward Marches Sector, Deneb Sector, and Dagudashaag Sector are all exceptions with lots of data. Try finding an Aslan sector with lots of data or a Zhodani one... We start somewhere and work from there.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:37, 30 July 2017 (EDT)

League of Antares:

Template:World summary ImLa

Is it possible to set this up? Many thanks.

Alagoric (talk) 17:27, 30 July 2017 (EDT)
Done: Template:World summary ImLa Tjoneslo (talk) 17:45, 30 July 2017 (EDT)

Splendid, thankyou

Alagoric (talk) 18:11, 30 July 2017 (EDT)

Is it possible to set up a disambiguation page for:

Kuk/Voskhod (Vland 0402)
Kuk/Pelusium (Antares 0603)

Many thanks

Alagoric (talk) 05:37, 31 July 2017 (EDT)
Kuk (An 0603) (world) needs to be filled, the Kuk (world) disambiguation page is active. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:45, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

Thankyou, on it.

Alagoric (talk) 06:50, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

Quick question, what's the score with placeholders? At the moment I'm leaving them but if its ok to expand the basic data I'll cheerfully crack on with doing that. Cheers!

Alagoric (talk) 07:49, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

Yes, please expand them. Thomas doesn't like them a bit, but I use them quite successfully as development devices. I flout Thomas's rules in this area although I respect him and really appreciate his hard work. I also use them to mark for others to follow up. Please detail them and build them out into great articles, Adie.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:39, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

Yes, please expand them. I have an irrational dislike of the words "TBD", "Placeholder", and the phrase "No information available". Thank you for all your hard work. Tjoneslo (talk) 21:00, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

Is it possible to get another disambiguation? The latest one is:

Shur/Urgusap (Antares 0535)
Shur/Thorstone (Glimmerdrift Reaches 1209)

The Antares system has been set up as Shur (An 0535) (world) in advance.

Many thanks

Alagoric (talk) 05:31, 2 August 2017 (EDT)

Now to explain the steps to do this.
1) If there is an existing page, like the Glimmerdrift Reaches Shur, move it to the correct page name. As described above there is a move page function in the wiki, and you should move to the correct page name.
2) When moving pages it leaves behind a redirect in the original page Shur (world). You need to edit this page and remove the #REDIRECT directive and replace it with the {{Disambig}} template and the list of disambiguous worlds (like above).
See also Manual_of_Style#World_articles.

Thank you, shall do.

Alagoric (talk) 08:27, 2 August 2017 (EDT)

Trade Map Generator & 500 World Limits (2017)[edit]

Hi, I've finished the worlds for Antares sector. I'm pretty sure I did all 554 but the count on the "World Listing" section of the Antares Sector page stopped at 496, so I'm not certain. Also, just worth noting, the "Subsector Summary" section of the Antares Sector page shows Domain of Sol rather than Domain of Antares.

Thank you for your patience and help while I was doing this, really good learning curve,

Alagoric (talk) 12:01, 6 August 2017 (EDT)

There is a limitation in the Template:SectorWorlds2 which limits the query to 500 entries. This is a system limitation in the underlying Dynamic List Plugin. You can try using Template:SectorWorlds3, which does a paged list of the worlds.
The Subector summary using the "Domain of Sol" is a know bug with the Trade Map generator which creates and updates these summaries. I've fixed this for the next generation run. Tjoneslo (talk) 12:57, 6 August 2017 (EDT)

Thank you for the info, appreciated and interesting to know.

Alagoric (talk) 13:44, 6 August 2017 (EDT)

Thomas, when do you plan to run the Trade Map generator next?

By the way, there is a bug in Template:SectorWorlds3, and I am seeing it not display any worlds on the pages where it was implemented.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:34, 6 August 2017 (EDT)

I fixed the SectorWorlds3 template to now work correctly. We should use that instead of SectorWorlds2 in areas (like Antares) with more than 475 or so worlds. Tjoneslo (talk) 00:10, 7 August 2017 (EDT) Tjoneslo (talk) 00:10, 7 August 2017 (EDT)

OK. I'll check to see if it is working and implement.

Thank you very much.
The previous version added an extra world for each page of worlds so we'd regularly be two or three worlds off.
The current SectorWorlds3 is adding 4 worlds to the count. 558 instead of 554.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:16, 7 August 2017 (EDT)

Star System tags (2017)[edit]

Adie, if you get a chance, build solar system tags into the worlds that you are inputting.

Data here: [[1]]
  • |Binary Star System
  • |Trinary Star System
  • |Quaternary Star System
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:15, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

No problem, included. Thanks for the update.

in the same vein, whats the difference / correct usage for the entries

  • |class =
  • |trade =

and how does this tie in with the

  • { { World summary |name= <NAME>|trade=<CODES>} } entry?

I'd prefer to get it right before I start slapping data into random locations and cause others more work.

Alagoric (talk) 01:31, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

One quick technical question:

some worlds can have multiple options for the trade entry. Examples might be poor hell worlds or ice-capped vacuum worlds. I think I'm right in saying that trade can only have one entry, so which one should take precedence? I'm guessing the more immediately hazardous it is, the higher up the list it goes - a poor hell world is best listed as He rather than Po (the razorshard storms will get you long before you die of malnutrition...) Would appreciate any thoughts or guidance.
Alagoric (talk) 06:22, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

The class parameter is for note taking, it doesn't have any affect on the output of the Template:UWP template. The trade parameter setting changes the color of the background of the text used for the name of the world.
The StellarDataQuery template data is generated by the Trade Map Generator code to extract the pcode (Planetary code). If there are multiple, it uses the simple pattern of alphabetical order. "He" is used over "Po" simply because the code comes first in alphabetical order.
Oh, and Hellworld has a tainted atmosphere and 20% or less surface water. And a poor world has very thin or thin atmosphere and 30% or less surface water. So the two together have a very thin tainted or thin tainted atmosphere and 20% or less surface water. So an unpleasant place to live, but not quite as dramatic as the trade classification summaries make it out to be.
Tjoneslo (talk) 06:53, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Thankyou sir, that explains it. You know, "crappy air and a bit dry" just isn't so inspiring.

Alagoric (talk) 07:01, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Well, true. But Traveller never defined "Taint" beyond "you don't want to breath it". So it could be a simple lack of oxygen or imply a microscopic silicon lifeform which turns the victims into a rage-fueled killing machine while it petrifies their internal organs. It was always supposed to be a signal that visitors will need their filter/compressor masks and don't count on ocean refueling. It's part of the reason I have an allergic reaction to "No information yet available". Tjoneslo (talk) 07:32, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Psychodust, totally splendid. And yeah I know what you mean.

Just to follow up, and to be sure I understand how it works:

  • No appropriate codes - leave it blank (it defaults to green (equivalent to Ga))
  • More than one appropriate code - go for the one with the lowest alphabetical listing, coz that's the one that'll get used anyway. When I was mucking around with it to see how it worked, entering more than one code appears to cause it to display as green - this was the basic reason why I was asking in the first place.
Rather like yourself I don't like blank entries. Can I force the default in "blank" trade code systems by putting in Ga, even though that code isn't in the system's trade codes and it defaults to it anyway? Sort of "nail it down", as it were. Over-zealous? Bad practice? Just curious.

Apologies for my being a bit of an idiot over this but I'd prefer to get it right. Thanks again for your advice and help.

Alagoric (talk) 08:05, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

There are two issues here. First is the planetary trade classification (e.g. 'As', 'Ga', etc) don't cover all the worlds. There really is a "Default" planetary trade classification, which is blank. So I don't mind the parameter being blank because it is a "default" specifier. I really should have a different color for the "Ga" code and the "Default" (i.e. blank) code, but I couldn't decide on a color. Suggestions welcome.
Second is the Template coding just uses an exact text match on the parameter to decide the background color. So if you put in something it doesn't recognize, it uses the default green. It assumes the template coder (i.e. you) are careful enough to encode the parameter correctly.
I hope that answers your questions. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:21, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Antares Sector (2017)[edit]

I am not sure that Antares is done.

I don't see either 500 or 554 worlds complete. I've cleared caches and I don't see any change.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:36, 6 August 2017 (EDT)

If you go through each of the subsectors, the SectorWorlds2 template shows the same number as the generated subsector summary data. So yes, it's complete. Except for the DPL failures. Tjoneslo (talk) 23:55, 6 August 2017 (EDT)

Adie and I just chatted, went through the subsectors and verified, Thomas.

Thank you.
Mendan and Meshan are next if you want to help with the citations. Edit them to the preferred format that you like.
I have Lishun on the side, but am prioritizing helping Adie complete his ("our") work.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:05, 7 August 2017 (EDT)

Trade map updates[edit]

I've been working with fixing a few bugs for the Trade Map generator and ran it for the Halcyon Sector and the Far Home Sector. This process created trade maps for both sectors, generated the sector and subsector summaries. There is more data if you are interested in seeing it posted.

The Farian Subsector is listed in TravellerMap sector data as 'Farin. Which is the correct spelling? You may need to update the TravellerMap data to match.

Let me know if I've done anything wildly wrong or if things could be corrected. Tjoneslo (talk) 17:18, 12 August 2017 (EDT)


Thank you so much sir, really interesting and excellent work, I very much appreciate the effort. I'm definitely interested in seeing everything posted. Thank you for the heads-up on the subsector name, I'll make sure its sorted as soon as possible: it should be Farin btw. Don't think there's anything too wrong tbh.

Alagoric (talk) 02:46, 13 August 2017 (EDT)

It's neat to watch these things happen.

Thanks Thomas and Alagoric for making such cool sci-fi happen!
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:21, 13 August 2017 (EDT)

Moved Information I[edit]

Trade Code Entries for standard UWP Template (2017)[edit]

These three areas are used as follows:

  • |class = Ag Ga Ri / Tp
  • |trade = ga
  • |climate = Tp
Class is used for the entire sequence as at Trade Classification and: [[2]]
Trade is a lower case two letter TC as explained at: Template:UWP
Climate used TC's intended for climate such as: Climate
Tp = Temperate World
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:16, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

Apologies didn't spot this until just now (I messaged earlier as it was playing on my mind). Shall have a good look at this and make sure it is implemented. Much appreciated.

Alagoric (talk) 02:34, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

No worries. It took guys like Thomas and I awhile to get the hang of this so please just know that you are very much appreciated.

In fact, I still consider myself to be getting the hang of it.
Let's chat soon on the telly and discuss strategies. I have a few that might help you.
Pretty soon, you will join the wiki sector club, the very exclusive club for individuals who have built out an entire sector or more for Traveller.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:24, 1 August 2017 (EDT)

Sophont Data Template (2017)[edit]

(Double brace then SophontData |name = |canon = |caption = |code = |extinct = |footnote = |home = |image = |multi = |ref = |size = |status = |type = |weight =

Trade Codes and Base Codes (2017)[edit]

Use page on edit function to see code, Adie:


World summary comment|trade=Ab}} Data Respository World summary comment|trade=An}} Ancients [[Category: Worlds with an Ancient Site World summary comment|trade=Ax}} Rosette World summary comment|trade=Co}} Cold World summary comment|trade=Cp}} Subsector capital World summary comment|trade=Cs}} Sector capital World summary comment|trade=Cx}} Capital of an interstellar empire World summary comment|trade=Da}} -Amber zone Danger = amber zone World summary comment|trade=Di}} Die-back (Ruins) World summary comment|trade=Fo}} - Red zone Forbidden = red zone World summary comment|trade=Fr}} Frozen World summary comment|trade=Hn}} Hiver Normal World summary comment|trade=Ho}} Hot climate World summary comment|trade=Hp}} Hiver prime World summary comment|trade=Ht}} High-tech (14+) World summary comment|trade=Lk}} Tidally-locked without a true twilight zone - Sa World summary comment|trade=Lt}} Low-tech (1-5)Mong (1-6)Chak World summary comment|trade=Tp}} Temperate climate World summary comment|trade=Tr}} Tropical climate World summary comment|trade=Tu}} World summary comment|trade=Tz}} Tidally-locked with a twilight zone - MW World summary comment|trade=Mr}} Military rule World summary comment|trade=Nh}} World summary comment|trade=Px}} Prison Camp / Penal Colony / Exile Colony World summary comment|trade=Pz}} -Amber zone Puzzle = amber zone World summary comment|trade=Re}} Reserve world World summary comment|trade=Rs}} Research station [[Category: Imperial Research Station [[Category: Institutions [[Category: Science Category: Worlds with a research station World summary comment|trade=Sa}} Satellite world World summary comment|trade=St}} World summary comment|trade=Un}} (Zho) unabsorbed World summary bases|bases=C}} Vargr Corsair Base World summary bases|bases=CK}}Vargr corsair plus naval World summary bases|bases=D}} Imperial Depot World summary bases|bases=E}} Hiver embassy World summary bases|bases=K}} Non-imperial navy base World summary bases|bases=KM}} Non-Imp ground plus space World summary bases|bases=M}} Non-imperial army base World summary bases|bases=N}} Imperial navy base [[Category: Naval Base worlds World summary bases|bases=NS}} [[Category: Naval Base worlds [[Category: Scout Base worlds World summary bases|bases=NW}}Imp Nav plus Imp Way World summary bases|bases=O}} K'kree naval outpost World summary bases|bases=R}} Aslan clan base World summary bases|bases=RT}} Aslan clan plus Aslan Tlaukhu World summary bases|bases=S}} Imperial scout base [[Category: Scout Base worlds World summary bases|bases=T}} Aslan Tlaukhu base World summary bases|bases=V}} Non-imp scout base = Explorer base World summary bases|bases=W}} Imperial way Station


I have come across the base combination of CM - Corsair base plus Non-Imperial army base (Meshan 1401). If this isn't an error is it possible to add it to the base types.

Alagoric (talk) 07:51, 7 August 2017 (EDT)
Done. Are you sure you want all this stuff on your user page? Tjoneslo (talk) 08:19, 7 August 2017 (EDT)

Thank you. Yep shall move it ... eventually. At the moment it's super convenient to find tho, so will do that at some point in the future. Definitely.

Alagoric (talk) 08:22, 9 August 2017 (EDT)

Star System Codes (2017)[edit]

Adie, these are the codes for the four most common kinds of stellar systems:

  • Just add the other line to the tag at the bottom, usually LE (canon) or LEN (non-canon).

Binary Solar System[edit]

TBD Binary Star System
Star Name Hierarchy Color Classification Remarks
TBD Primary Primary Yellow G3 V
TBD Companion Secondary Yellow G3 V


|Binary Star System

Trinary Solar System[edit]

TBD Trinary Star System
Star Name Hierarchy Color Classification Remarks
TBD Primary Primary Yellow G3 V
TBD Companion Secondary Yellow G3 V
TBD Far Companion Tertiary Yellow G3 V


|Trinary Star System

Quaternary Solar System[edit]

TBD Quaternary Star System
Star Name Hierarchy Color Classification Remarks
TBD Primary Primary Yellow G3 V
TBD Companion Secondary Yellow G3 V
TBD Far Companion Tertiary Yellow G3 V
TBD Distant Companion Quaternary Yellow G3 V


|Quaternary Star System

Subsector & Sector Templates (2017)[edit]

Maksim-Smelchak/layout templates6

Sath Alliance Military[edit]

Ronald B. Kline, Jr. (talk) 19:56, 29 August 2017 (EDT)What do I need to fix, what is wrong, what did I leave out? Let me know, thanks


We'll get it sorted, not a problem. Really enjoying the content btw, good stuff. I've been working on the Sath worlds and Factions - I'll send you the relevant background soon. Thx again sir.

21:00, 29 August 2017 (EDT)


Mainworld Data (2017)[edit]

I noticed you are adding a static, if incomplete, block of text to several world articles. I can turn that into a template, so you can just set the parameters: {{Mainworld data |orbiralAU=XX |orbitalDays=XX |orbitalHours=XX |rotationHours=XX <and so on>}}

Would that be of interest? Tjoneslo (talk) 07:02, 30 December 2017 (EST)


Hi Tjoneslo, thank you for the kind offer, that would be really useful.

I've been evolving the way star system / mainworld data works on the page - I'll cheerfully admit to being strongly influenced by Pilots Guide to Drexilthar Subsector in this. Based on T5 of course, but drawing heavily on LBB 6, WBH and other sources too.

The premise I'm trying to stick to is that the data is basically "MOARN" but (hopefully) still gives a feeling of depth and detail. I've also tried to be mindful of the fact that it should be relevant in some way to playing the game. In terms of on-page style and layout I think I'm pretty much there, and if you are happy with the sort of finished layout I'm producing, a template to facilitate this would be absolutely splendid.

Again thanks, your input is really appreciated.

Alagoric (talk) 07:57, 30 December 2017 (EST)
Template:Mainworld data : Let me know what you think. We can always tweak this. The advantage of templates for this is when we come up with better text or add new parameters, all the articles get updated. Tjoneslo (talk) 10:09, 30 December 2017 (EST)

Thank you sir, looks really good. Shall experiment with how it works and report back.

Alagoric (talk) 11:30, 30 December 2017 (EST)

Hi Tjoneslo, I get the principle (it works the same way as stellar data boxes) but could you give me a few pointers on how to correctly call the template into the document, if you see what I mean - I'd prefer to get it right and your guidance would be much appreciated before I commit random acts of creation. Cheers!

Alagoric (talk) 11:57, 30 December 2017 (EST)

Eigh (world) and Ishler (world)‎‎ are two worked examples of the template in action. The basic idea is to copy the template outline from the template documentation section into the article, then fill the values. Some of the values (like orbital distance in km, or G forces) can be calculated and so I do.
I've tried to select parameter names which should be more descriptive than the UWP template ones. If you have more specific questions or suggestions I would be happy to help further. Tjoneslo (talk) 22:09, 30 December 2017 (EST)

Thank you so much sir, very much appreciated. Really good stuff and cheers for setting up the examples.

A couple of thoughts occur. The template as provided is absolutely splendid for Terran-type worlds, but begins to break down when we get to things like planetoid belts, or vacuum or exotic atmospheres, especially where the gas mix isn't nitrogen-oxygen.

I'm wondering if it might be worth approaching each UWP code as a separate template, which would allow a mix-and-match approach as appropriate. A vacuum world, for example, has no need for data regarding climatic effects, and having a list of atmospheric gases listed as 0% somehow just doesn't seem elegant.

Also, having separate templates for each UWP code allows notes to be tacked on directly after the closing double braces, giving the author the opportunity to add additional details and comments while maintaining the overall structure and appearance of the document. Gives a lot of flexibility and also eliminates the need for increasingly complex catch-all templates.


Re individual templates, if the idea is practical:

The size code would be the most fundamental and should contain both orbital details (orbital distance in AU, orbital period etc) as well as the world's physical details (size, axial tilt, density, gravity etc). We should also consider making allowances for special cases such as a high orbital eccentricity, which could radically adjust not just mean temperatures but even things such as the atmospheric composition - in an extreme case, the atmosphere could freeze to the surface every couple of months or years, by way of an example.

I'm wondering if we also ought to look at planetoid belts as a special case, as much of the UWP-derived data is redundant. In terms of the data I provide I've been using the layout and details of the Tarsus system from GDW's Beltstrike as my prototype. Belt depth, composition (carbonaceous, nickel-iron, icy etc), typical belt object size, and the nature of the primary inhabited body are the main elements. Also, I only provide orbital data etc for the belt's "main body", and such data generally occurs "out of sequence" in terms of the layout. Also we should be mindful of little finesses, such as inner system belts - and there are a few out there - are fairly unlikely to have icy bodies within them.

Not quite so sure about tackling atmosphere, its properly tricky getting it right.

Because of the very individual natures of trace, exotic, insidious, and corrosive atmospheres, would it perhaps be possible to allow the component atmospheric gases to be defined? Or would it perhaps be better to allow the data to be inputted manually, following an agreed format maybe?

We definitely need to work out how to include atmospheric taints – this is, in my experience, often the first thing players look at after Starport and TL. The nature of the taint should definitely be at least mentioned.

My personal go-to choices for taints are radiation (typically from stellar proximity, absence of a significant magnetosphere, parent gas giant worlds or other more local sources) or an undesirable percentage (either high or low) of atmospheric oxygen. Easiest to justify to be honest, and I suspect the most likely natural causes of a taint in real life too. And having them as "prime suspects" also serves to make worlds with other stranger taints that little bit more unique and memorable. But that's just my take on it.

I'm still not quite sure how it could be easily done.

For hydrographics, as a basic descriptor I've been using the terms oceans, seas and lakes. Its arbitrary I know, but if the hydrographic percentage is 50% or more I've been calling them oceans, for 10%-49% I've been describing as them as seas, and less than 10% I've been calling lakes. Really its only colour, but it seems to work quite well. As climate will dramatically impact on the hydrographics, with perhaps a lower ratio of liquid water to ice than the UWP might suggest, is there a means to include this (ie define percentages of ice and water) should it be necessary.

Tidal ranges are pretty much guesswork to be honest. I tend to go with close to the star or a big (or close) moon, bigger tides. Tides are mighty complex - as François Arago famously said, studying tides is the tomb of human curiosity – so I've deliberately steered away from too much detail (tidal acceleration vectors, water pressure differentials etc). Make it look sensible and plausible – honestly, I'd argue that's as much as you really need for a game.

Mean tidal ranges I keep low - typically (but not exclusively) less than a meter – earths tidal range is around 0.6m. Its the geography, for the most part, that causes really massive tidal effects, like in the Bay of Fundy in Canada.

What do you think? Apologies if its not very clear.

Alagoric (talk) 07:28, 31 December 2017 (EST)

I'm going to re-iterate your ideas back at you in a different format to see if I understand them correctly.

There are two basic types of worlds: terran-norm (Tn) and exotic (Ex). Terra-norm are size 4-A, atmosphere 4-9, and hydrographic 0-A. Exotic worlds are ones outside of that, i.e. if it's not a terra-norm world it's an exotic world. The template we have works well for the terra-norm worlds, but not as well for the exotic worlds.

For the Tn worlds the descriptions used for the hydrographics: "surface is covered in seas of" should be tweaked by the hydrographic percentage. 50%+ is oceans, 49%-10% is seas, 9% or less should be lakes.

There should be a parameter to describe atmospheric taint. Traveller assumes, and science back this up, that the terra-norm worlds are life bearing. The only way you get significant percentages of oxygen in the atmosphere is to have a process (i.e photosynthesis) constantly replenishing it. So adding "biologicals" (e.g. micro-organisms, pollen, dander, or other allergens) to the list of taints is not unusual.

For tides, you should add GURPS Traveller: First In to your list of reading materials. This book takes WBH and refines the details. There are better formulas, even if it mostly produces airless rockball worlds. This may have a description of tides.

For the Tn worlds these kinds of changes to the template are straight forward.

For the exotic worlds, these can be divided into three types: Planetoid belts, vacuum worlds, and non-oxygen atmospheres.

For non-oxygen atmosphere (atmosphere type A, B, C, or F), there may be hydrographics of tainted water, or something not water at all, and weather. So pretty similar to the terra-norm worlds, but with slight details differences.

For vacuum worlds (atmosphere type 0-3), there won't be atmospheric details, hydrographics (maybe ice), or weather.

For planetoid belts, we'll have a vacuum atmosphere, and a significantly different description.

There are two approaches for templates. One is to have one template, with many parameters including the UWP, which has different basic blocks of text, selected by the values in the UWP, and use the parameters as needed to fill them out. This makes for a complex template and a lot of parameters which may or may not be needed.

The other is to have four templates: Mainworld Tn, Mainworld Ea, Mainworld Va, Mainworld As, and have the authors select the correct one. There are fewer, and different, parameters for each template.

This should cover about 99.99% of the cases. Exceptions, like Dinom (world), or other much weirder cases should be thought about when we come across them.

I guess the question for you now is, do you like the idea of one master template, or four?

- Tjoneslo (talk) 09:38, 31 December 2017 (EST)

Looks great, guys. Great work. Please feel free to experiment with these ideas regardless of canon. One of the missions of the wiki is development independent of canon.

  • Also, thank you very much for both of your collective bodies of hard work.
  • I would love to create or see created a more detailed and clear idea of what the atmospheres are.
  • I have already been compiling a list of the different kinds of taints and explanations for various worlds and atmosphere types.
- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:53, 31 December 2017 (EST)

Thx chaps, interesting and good points.

I personally like the idea of four different templates. I do like documents to look tidy – I kinda hate having blank bits in paragraphs – and multiple templates could sidestep this. But I did page layout and editing for a living, so that's probably an ingrained mindset more than anything. I do feel it gives more flexibility and allows us to play around with stuff a little more. I'll happily bow to your judgment though.


Re atmospheric oxygen, you might find this interesting:

It is possible to produce oxygen by breaking up carbon dioxide with high-energy ultraviolet light, which could help explain how Earth's early atmosphere formed. Though the amount of oxygen created is pretty small, it is enough to show that it is possible to produce oxygen from CO2 by a non-biological process. A similar process could also break down water vapor within an atmosphere into oxygen and hydrogen. Potential sources of atmospheric oxygen for marginal type 2 or 3 atmospheres perhaps?


Abiotic oxygen can also be produced by the photocatalytic reaction of titanium dioxide (TiO2, Titania), typically from surface minerals such as ilmenite.

For a planet with an environment similar to the sun-Earth system, continuous photocatalytic reaction of titanium dioxide on about 0.05 % of the planetary surface *could* produce the amount of oxygen found in the current Earth's atmosphere. The process could possibly provide oxygen for habitable planets around other types of host stars with various masses and temperatures.

Even in the least efficient production case of a low-temperature star, the photocatalytic reaction of the titanium dioxide on about 3 percent of the planetary surface could maintain this level of atmospheric oxygen through abiotic processes. In other words, it is possible that a habitable extrasolar planet could maintain an atmosphere with Earth-like oxygen, even without organisms to perform photosynthesis.

This process is most likely to occur around young active stars, flare stars, and stellar bodies that have higher levels of UV output. Once some kind of equilibrium is reached (if one can be) there could be a significant % of free atmospheric oxygen, floating around without anything much to react with.

I have got some scholarly articles about it somewhere but I can't find them at the moment. The following link is about the only reference I can currently track down:

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep13977

Honestly I dunno, it seems a bit fragile and I can't help thinking there's a big chemical problem somewhere in there. And where does the (mostly) inert component of the atmosphere (ie nitrogen) come from? But, in theory, it should work. Plausible enough for sci-fi do you think? Good enough to have oxygen-rich atmospheres without native life? Its not my idea or anything, I just figured you'd be interested.

Alagoric (talk) 12:09, 31 December 2017 (EST)

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That was an interesting read. The challenge with the titania approach is you need to have a natural balance between the TiO2 area catalyzing water into oxygen. Too low and the known oxygen sinks (Fe, carbon) suck down all the oxygen, leaving you with a exotic atmosphere. Too much and you either end up with a toxic, and inflammable atmosphere or end up catalyzing all the water leaving a desert planet.

Nitrogen, because it is so inert, would naturally form a significant part of any atmosphere. The various nitrogen compounds, ammonia especially, and at the levels of UV that would drive the titania reactions, would decompose rapidly into N2.

Biological oxygen generation has a built in regulator, in that if the O2 gets too high, it starts to burn the generators. With the titania reaction, there is no feedback to limit the process. If you get a 50/50 oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere and a single spark you may end up with a world-wide firestorm as the oxygen and nitrogen combine to nitrous oxide, or any of the other N/O combinations. It would make for an interesting, if rare, world. The UV would break the N/O compounds back down into N2 and O2 eventually, and start the cycle over again. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:30, 31 December 2017 (EST)