User talk:Tjoneslo/archive-2017

This page is an archive of my talk page for the topics discussed in 2017. Please do not edit this page. If you want to respond to one of these issues, please add a new topic to my talk page

Organization of Goods Entries

Thomas, how do you feel goods entries should be organized? Or do you feel that they should be left as stubs? Interested to learn more about your position since I know you always have a bigger picture in mind.

I think that implementing some kind of regular structure is very important. It helps new authors to structure their thoughts and give more richness to the setting. What do you think?

I am a maximalist. I like giving as much detail and richness as possible.

I have discovered that most of the goods articles are three sentences long. And your headers just add visual clutter to what should be three sentences in one paragraph. I also happen to agree with this sentiment.

I do agree that having a regular structure for articles is a good idea, and that it helps keep articles consistent. However, don't forget that 90+% of our viewership is readers only. That is, people who want to read the articles only, but don't (or won't) contribute. From that perspective, you want a minimalist point of view. What is the minimal set of headers, infoboxes, etc. that presents all of known and useful information. Things not known, or not written about from the source, can be assumed by omission rather than explicitly stating it.

If you want a project, all of the article outline templates are currently hidden. It would be very useful to put them as individual sub-pages under Manual of Style. For example Manual of Style/worlds or Manual of Style/sophonts, then make sure they are linked to the main Manual of style article, with directions for using these to fill out an article of this type. The sub-pages should include the infobox(s), all the headers, the Sources box (empty), and so on.

That way we all have an easily found, agreed upon layout for a full article. Authors who want create new content can easily find or be pointed to the article outline to make sure they include everything and organize it. And/or add to existing article.

Tjoneslo (talk) 11:34, 1 January 2017 (EST)

Thanks for your keen response, Thomas. M.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:10, 18 November 2017 (EST)

I accept that project.

The wiki has been floundering along for nearly a decade. Visual clutter can be a stage of growth to well developed articles... I can see the point that you and Sstefan are making and find it eminently reasonable, but how is the wiki to grow if we only accept mature, fully grown articles?

When I stepped in, I found many of the wiki sector articles poorly organized so I took a whack at it and began collecting their data in a systematic, comparative fashion.

What you, I, and a few others have developed is serious progress. MWM, Greg, Rob and others use it all the time.

I am suggesting that we, as a collective group, change our mindset or strategy on such things.

Developing style pages is a great suggestion. Challenge accepted.

But that, in my opinion, is only part of the solution. Another part is developing the wiki as we go and not expecting Athena to pop out of Zeus's head fully formed...

I write this because I care and I watched the wiki not provide the answers that new gamers at conventions wanted... That's no criticism of the moderator or fans, but a call to action. Let's make this wiki into a functional, comprehensive AAB.

I put into place the first of your suggestions, Thomas. Thanks. Great ideas. Here: [[1]] and here: [[2]]

Please edit mercilessly as you see fit. LOL ;-)

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 17:00, 2 January 2017 (EST)

Rhylanor Data Crowding

Thomas, Greg would like to see some data changed or overwritten at Rhylanor (world). Please see the discussion page there.

This might be a time for your wiki master title to come in handy. The solution could be as easy as an extra footnote.

I am loathe to overwrite otherwise good content. M.

I changed the references of "Rhylantinople" to "Rhylanor (Main) Highport". I think Greg's primary objection is to the name, not necessarily the data.

• --WHULorigan (talk) 16:59, 5 January 2017 (EST)

That sounds fine to me. I have no objections to the change. Tjoneslo (talk) 21:16, 5 January 2017 (EST)

Thanks, Wayne.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:25, 5 January 2017 (EST)

Trojan Reaches Volunteer

Thomas, we have a volunteer for Trojan Reaches. Do you think you could go light with your editing there while he learns the ropes?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:16, 13 March 2017 (EDT)

Who is our wonderful new volunteer? I'd like to welcome him to the Wiki.

Tjoneslo (talk) 13:11, 16 March 2017 (EDT)

User:DickNervous, an older traveler grognard from NY, has started working on the Trojan Reaches.

He previously worked on it a bit and is returning while his game has a hiatus.

I certainly benefitted from your mentoring, Thomas, and I'm sure he would too. Thanks for your kindness.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:52, 16 March 2017 (EDT)

ClusterWorlds2 Functionality?

Thomas, it appears that the template ClusterWorlds2 is no longer fully working. Do you know anything about that?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:45, 28 April 2017 (EDT)

It would vastly help if you gave a specific page where you are seeing this issue. We've run into this problem before and the cause was badly formatted base pages. Tjoneslo (talk) 19:46, 28 April 2017 (EDT)

Thank you.

• DagMet AG worlds category
• Hive Federation worlds category
• Hiver worlds category

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:31, 29 April 2017 (EDT)

This is a regression in the DynamicPageList functionality: https://github.com/Alexia/DynamicPageList/issues/33

In order to et these to work again I'll need to limit the ClusterWorlds template on one of ways

1. have the list be un-ordered. I really don't like the way that looks
2. Display only the first 200 or so entries. I'm going to do this.

And we'll have to be aware of the limitation until this gets fixed. I don's suppose you know PHP at all? Tjoneslo (talk) 10:08, 29 April 2017 (EDT)

Thank you for your attention to this.

I defer to your preference. I could live with unordered but greatly prefer it.

I actually do know PHP fairly well. I have avoided doing coding here because I do not want to insert code that you possibly didn't understand completely since you host and are the wikimaster. I try to stay within the code preferences that you specify.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:18, 29 April 2017 (EDT)

In all seriousness: https://github.com/Alexia/DynamicPageList

This is the code for the Dynamic Page List extension to the wiki. If you can figure out what is wrong with the code as to why it's generating the query incorrectly, I have a copy of the Traveller Wiki on a VM where I can verify the code and build a PR for them to fix it officially.

Tjoneslo (talk) 10:49, 29 April 2017 (EDT)

I'll take a look. I could have sworn one of the recent mediawiki articles had something about that.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:40, 29 April 2017 (EDT)

Many thanks Maksim-Smelchak for bringing this up. I noticed it too on several pages including Zirunkariish and several of the corporation's worlds category pages. I have no PHP qualifications but I think Tjoneslo's course of action to limit the ClusterWorlds template to display only the first 200 or so entries is best. For the rare occasions when such listings would exceed 200, perhaps a separate template would be advisable? Just my two Imperial Credits. Thanks for the opportunity to provide input and opine.

FarScout275 (talk) 04:56, 30 April 2017 (EDT)

Aam & Conway Disambiguation

Thomas, I disambiguated Conway. Would you please be kind enough to fix the advanced UWP system for it?

• Aam (world)
• Aam (Da 1604) (world)
• Conway (world)
• Conway (SM 2735) (world)

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:09, 13 May 2017 (EDT)

You have the ability to move pages (and sub-pages). In the menu at the top of the page under "More", there is a move option. Please use this for processing disambiguation pages. The move process will move the pages, the talk page, and all the sub-pages (like the data pages), along with all the page history. Copying the page content means much more work, and we lose all of the page history.

Tjoneslo (talk) 08:19, 14 May 2017 (EDT)

Thank you for your assistance.

The history is not lost. It just remains on the disambiguation page.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:29, 14 May 2017 (EDT)

The entire point is the history goes with the page, and is available there. Not on some other page which may be difficult to find. I know you have a very specific set of operations for fixing pages, but this is important to the correct operation of the wiki. Especially for others. Tjoneslo (talk) 09:40, 14 May 2017 (EDT)

Would you please be kind enough to explain in detail why and how this is useful to you and others?

I have been able to track down all kinds of records, usually with little to no help.

The advanced UWP really can make a mess of things. Please help me to understand your train of thought.

Thanks.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:50, 14 May 2017 (EDT)

Page history is one of the central properties of what makes a wiki. You process disrupts the page history. The fact that you can find the page history based upon the changes you made isn't important. The assumption for others is they can always find page history with the page. So please respect both the intended workflow of the wiki and the writers who will come after you by making sure every page has the correct page history. The Move page functionality is there specifically to keep the page history with the page. Tjoneslo (talk) 10:14, 14 May 2017 (EDT)

Thanks for sharing. I would ask similarly that you don't delete my work, which also has intrinsic functionality. Edit it, for sure, but don't delete it because it is not yet complete. There is meaning there even if you feel it is duplicative.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:54, 14 May 2017 (EDT)

Page Cite Problems

Thomas, when you get a chance, please, would you please review the world entry here?: Falcon (TR 2725) (world)

I have used the page cite template, that you so kindly wrote, several times and it is glitching somehow.

{{Page cite|name=Maksim-Smelchak|page=1|citeName=TBD

Undoubtedly, it is something I am missing and nothing wrong with the template.

Thank you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:54, 19 May 2017 (EDT)

For just a name, like you are doing here, you want to use the Template:Unpublished cite. The Template: Page cite wants a real published book name, not an author.

Also, never use citeName=TDB. Always give a real, unique name to your citeName. Overlapping citeName values cause the cite's in the source box to be confused and wrong. Tjoneslo (talk) 14:45, 19 May 2017 (EDT)

Thank you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 05:37, 20 May 2017 (EDT)

7777 Worlds

Per your request, Thomas, I have thinned down the 7777 worlds to under a hundred and will get through the last 80 or so.

I have changed procedures to enter future worlds with the subsector coordinates per your wishes.

In this process, I have noticed that some of the sector world counting seem to be adding a world in places or otherwise be off count.

Please advise as to which template should be used and how we might ameliorate this problem.

Thank you for your hard work at the wiki. Really appreciated your assistance with Dagu. I know that is your favorite.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:23, 17 June 2017 (EDT)

Thank you for cleaning up the world articles with the incorrect hex location.

There are three templates which would provide a worlds list and count:

1. Template:ClusterWorlds - used for listing worlds in a cluster, relies upon having worlds in a specific category
2. Template:SectorWorlds2 - used to list worlds in a sector or subsector, relies upon the correct formatting of the article.
3. Template:SectorWorlds4 - used to list worlds in a sector or subsector, relies upon having the data in the SectorData cargo table: Currently limited to Dagudashaag, Spinward Marches, Deneb, Knoellighz, and their subsectors.

There are a number of other template which can be used for the same purpose, but they are in various ways, broken. If you have questions like this, please direct me to the specific page and template which you feel is off and why. A general "something is broken" is not something I can always track down to fix.

Tjoneslo (talk) 12:24, 17 June 2017 (EDT)

Welcome. I will track down some specifics for you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:29, 17 June 2017 (EDT)

Wiki Compliments

I wanted to pass on compliments about the wiki to you.

I am working with future FFE and Mongoose authors who love the resource.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:42, 18 June 2017 (EDT)

Lishun & Hinterworlds Disambiguations

I will be doing Lishun and Hinterworlds disambiguations in the near future. Glimmerdrift Reaches disambigs are done for now.

If you want any of that done a specific way, this is a polite notice that those areas are forthcoming in the near future.

If you are willing to chat about it, let's do so. I promise to listen and be open-minded.

I appreciate what you do here. Thank you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 21:45, 18 June 2017 (EDT)

If you want to, you could just post the worlds that need to be converted to a disambiguation page, I can do the page move and other setup's as needed. That would probably work best/fastest. Tjoneslo (talk) 02:38, 19 June 2017 (EDT)

Sounds great. Thank you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:13, 19 June 2017 (EDT)

Please Stop Deleting Placeholders

Please stop deleting placeholders. They are just things we'll need to go back to later. And you destroy their history. Important, right?

Please send me the list and I'll fill them in further to your unspecified, minimum specs.

I am doing so for some of your preferences. Disambig pages. Quid pro quo.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 05:05, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

They're not gone. If you edit the page, it will point out there are N deleted items and allow you to restore the pages. When I asked you not to create these pages in the first place, I pointed out the redlinks in the articles serve as an important signifier to both the readers and writers the article on the other end does not exist, and will need to be created and added to. This isn't my opinion, but inherent in the design of the wiki software.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/index.php?search=placeholder&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go -> Here are the 1,472 placeholders articles you can work on fixing. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:29, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

Why bother deleting them then? Why do you go to the extra work when you could be working on your projects?

It's just as apparent one way as the other. Is it meaningful in some way?

Is there anyway we can reset our communications? Or will there always be this snarkiness?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:03, 20 June 2017 (EDT)

Climate Article

Thomas, please review and enrich this article: Climate with your observations, comments, and opinions.

Thank you for your hard work at the wiki.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:34, 22 June 2017 (EDT)

I have nothing to add to the article at this time. I need to dig out the DGP WorldBuilder and First In books to verify the entries. Tjoneslo (talk) 08:42, 22 June 2017 (EDT)

Thank you. Most of that is GURPS Trav, correlated with T5 and other editions.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 18:33, 22 June 2017 (EDT)

Subsector Maps in my Faraway Sectors

Hi sir, subsector maps in templates for my Distant Fringe (Faraway Sectors) region seem to be off center - I'm losing the last column of hexes in the displayed subsector map. Examples would be any of the Subsectors within Halcyon Sector (coordinates -18 / -13), or indeed in any of the sectors around it. Also, my apologies for not having said hello before now, I've been getting to grips with Talk. Bit of a learning curve. Many thanks too for your earlier encouraging comments.

Alagoric (talk) 15:33, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Welcome to the Traveller Wiki. Thanks for all of your contributions.

The Subsector maps were off because the calculated coordinates were incorrect. We fixed it for sector maps for the farwaway sectors, but missed the update for the subsector maps. This is now fixed and should be nicely centered for all the maps. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:21, 5 July 2017 (EDT)

Thank very much for sorting that, really appreciated.

And thanks, Having a lot of fun putting it all together.

Alagoric (talk) 02:08, 6 July 2017 (EDT)

Lishun Citation Upgrades

Thomas, I plan to populate Lishun Sector soon. If you would like to upgrade the citations to your latest standard, I will make sure they are implemented as the systems are populated.

• I will work the inevitable disambigs per your preferences.
• Do you have any other requests for this sector?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:25, 9 July 2017 (EDT)

My only request is to finish the worlds and articles in other sectors you have been working on before you start another.

• 50 pages still with bad hex locations
• 40 pages still with "Zowie" names.
• 2763 pages still marked with "being input-programmed".

Tjoneslo (talk) 20:55, 9 July 2017 (EDT)

Thanks. All on the drawing board.

Have you made any progress on any of your projects?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 00:17, 10 July 2017 (EDT)

Knoellighz Sector Autogeneration

User:Tjoneslo, would you please update the autogenerated data pages for Knoellighz Sector in the near future?

User:The Pakkrat is chomping at the bit to make changes after the last T5SS update.

I will teach him how to make a new layout page after the change.

Thank you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:35, 14 July 2017 (EDT)

Is this just the worlds, or are you needing the subsector and sector summaries and that data too? I think there have been some updates to the Traveller Map data files so I'll have to pull the updates from there first. Tjoneslo (talk) 06:36, 15 July 2017 (EDT)

I was just thinking worlds, but whatever you think would be appropriate.

Thinking about it, yes, I think everything. He'll need it to adjust the designs. ZhSh changed its borders.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:42, 15 July 2017 (EDT)

Oh, that's right. Several of the Zho sectors are now in review with real data. That requires a full Trade Route run. This process requires several days. And I last did the update in Feburary. Let me ping Josh about the status of the various updates and see if now is a good time or there are pending updates. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:19, 15 July 2017 (EDT)

OK, thanks.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2017 (EDT)

Lower or upper case for trade category?

Thomas, would you please change the code pm the standard UWP to accept lower or upper case:

• |class =
• |trade =

Trade only accepts lower case and it would be more flexible for it to accept upper case as well.

Thank you. If you do not care to do it, please let me know. I can do it.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 17:56, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

Done. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:18, 31 July 2017 (EDT)

Templates, Organizational Layouts, & References (2017)

Thomas, I am pretty sure that your remark referred to organizational layouts. Please confirm.

I have intentions to fill out every single of the thousands of worlds, either myself or through land grab contests.

But I don't write at FTL and it may take me awhile. Please be calm, bear with me, and understand that I am working on an extremely long-term arc to develop Traveller properties.

I know it is difficult and you have my sympathy, but short term strategies for wiki development didn't get great results in the first ten years of the wiki's development. Thank goodness for everything that has been done, it's amazing. Much gratitude to you and others.

But, I want to see it get to the next level. Stuff like Imperial genealogy, more developed corporate info, and the like.

Please help me to understand your feelings and opinions about references. I don't understand why you are removing previous references.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:38, 13 August 2017 (EDT)

I'm missing a reference here. Which, of the many many remarks, are you specifically referring to? Tjoneslo (talk) 11:31, 13 August 2017 (EDT)

You mean there is more than one???

I really do appreciate what Maksim has been working on, but still there are frustrations that leave me wanting to distance my involvement. Ssteve (talk) 19:04, 23 August 2017 (EDT)

I'm clearly missing another conversation. I'm sorry you're not comfortable contributing and I would like to fix things to make you feel so. Tjoneslo (talk) 22:48, 23 August 2017 (EDT)

I spoke with Maksim and I hope we resolved that issue. Look for further entries for the Empty Quarter in the near future. Ssteve (talk) 02:19, 24 August 2017 (EDT)

Thomas, we spoke using one of your prohibited communicative mediums.

It was mostly small talk, answering questions and I will leave him more space when he inputs entries.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 05:29, 24 August 2017 (EDT)

Sophont Entries

I can't wait to see what you come up with while you experiment with the sophont entries. Good luck!

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:53, 16 September 2017 (EDT)

Me too. First step is getting the headers more consistent and the articles organized according to a more sensible layout. Further suggestions welcome. Tjoneslo (talk) 23:29, 16 September 2017 (EDT)

You're doing great. My only observation is that I hate losing good data or categories such as the homeworld environments or atmospheric breathing gases.

MGT is working on new Bwap and Vegan books among others. I know because I am editing them. We have been using the wiki as a development device.

I based the previous layout on a combination of FFE, DGP, and MGT. I found it sensible but I am open to new ideas.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 08:51, 17 September 2017 (EDT)

I look forward to seeing the new books when they come out.

I found the ordering of the previous outline difficult to understand. It made adding or updating entries more difficult than I thought necessary. I still have a aversion to layouts that have a header with one sentence. My schooling for outlines was to have a full paragraph for each header.

In either case I try very hard not to remove any information, only to organize and consolidate it so that it more readable and easier to follow.

Tjoneslo (talk) 18:11, 17 September 2017 (EDT)

No worries. Go for it. I would love to see it improved for all fans.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:22, 17 September 2017 (EDT)

Subsector Template

The subsector template is not generating data according to Trav-Map data. Error.

• Specifically, the automatic "Polity Listing" is not accurate. It may just need updating.
• Specifically, Udinidir Subsector reads all Alliance of Ozuvon, which doesn't reflect Trav Map data. There are many others.
• Any chance you can redesign that as a template like SectorWorlds2 rather than have it be automatic like it is? Please.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:56, 22 October 2017 (EDT)

The question of templates requires asking the question of where do we get the data from:

• Pulling it from the existing world data requires the world articles be 100% correct. And I'll renew my objection to entering the empty world articles.
• Pulling it from the Traveller Map API. I really don't want to be more closely tied into Traveller Map, and Joshua has already stated the wiki takes about half of his bandwidth.
• Have me update the summaries. The full trade map generation process takes about a week of my free time, including the upload to the wiki.

I would suggest for this case, you update the subsector summary page. I've asked you not to update the summaries because the Trade Map update process will overwrite them. But it this case lets if we can figure out why it's this wrong.

Tjoneslo (talk) 18:46, 22 October 2017 (EDT)

Thanks for your response.

• I think we need to reconsider the process if it takes a week of your free time. I find that unfair.
• I would love to better understand what you do so that we can bring in other minds and figure out better ways.
• I have been using layout pages for some time to avoid editing your auto-generated pages.
• I don't feel comfortable with so many auto-generated pages and only one person managing them. That makes you a potential single point of failure and a huge loss to Traveller if you were experience misfortune. Lord forbid.
• I have a hunch that this is related to one of your auto-generated coding routines. I've seen it elsewhere. It will probably be solved by a later update. No urgency from me. I can certainly live with it for now, but I want you to be aware of it so you can take appropriate action when the time comes.
• Thanks.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:29, 23 October 2017 (EDT)

I'm not complaining, I'm just trying to set expectations. I've not made the process more streamlined and easier because the assumption was the underlying data (in Traveller Map) wasn't going to change frequently and there were not going to be many places in the wiki to update. So I've been scheduling the generated updates about once a year. Right now I'm waiting for Josh to get some updates for the Zhodani sectors, the Julian Protectorate, and, if your post below is correct, the Hive Federation.

All of the code, and most of the directions, for the Trade Map generation, including the upload process for the wiki, is hosted in GitHub: https://github.com/makhidkarun/traveller_pyroute

I've double checked the subsector summaries for the JP sectors and they are now correct.

Tjoneslo (talk) 07:27, 24 October 2017 (EDT)

I figured it was an update.

• I think it's a safe assumption that with someone to drive the process, there will be many more updates.
• Almost each of the major races has embers in the fire... That means potentially 6 major races of sector updates dribbling down over the next few years...
• Let's lighten your workload however possible. You are an important lynchpin. Can't have you burning out.
• Please let me know how I can assist with the lightening of you workload, but not your wise advice or keen insights.
• I am familiar with GitHub.
• Thank you again!

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:36, 24 October 2017 (EDT)

Hiver Space

Hiver Space has a whole crew using our rough wiki data combined with Trav Map doing development.

1. Thank you for your edits to Avereguar Sector.
2. I hope to see Hiver Space come out with published product in the next 24 to 48 months.
3. There is a plan amongst the chaos of Trav Inner Circle and other craziness.
4. Thank you for all that you do. I highly appreciate you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:59, 22 October 2017 (EDT)

Star Bridge Subsector

Hi Thomas, your automated polity counter at Star Bridge appears to be coming up with errors: Star Bridge Subsector.

• Do you know why it is coming up with so many errors? Anything I can do to help?
• It is otherwise a marvelous piece of coding. Thank you for creating it.
• I am currently working on Aldebaran Sector.
• Very soon, all of the Solomani Confederation will be entered.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:10, 18 November 2017 (EST)

I'm confused by your statement. I would try purging your page cache: Under the More option in the top of the page, select the "Purge Cache" option. I don't see any errors on the page. Can you be more specific about what you are seeing? Tjoneslo (talk) 12:04, 18 November 2017 (EST)

Star Bridge Subsector reads (I cleared the cache):

• Polity Listing
  • The Solomani Confederation, Bootean Federation in Star Bridge has jurisdiction over 18 worlds with a population of 8 billion. The highest population world is Valdarno (Aldebaran 0816). The highest tech level is D at Proserpina (Aldebaran 0715). The average technology level is 9 (with most between 7 and 10). The subsector capital is Aetna (Aldebaran 0619).
  • The Non-Aligned Human-dominated worlds in Star Bridge encompasses two worlds with a population of less than 1 million.

But it has no SoBF worlds. They are SoCf. It reads SoBF (Bootean) for worlds that are not.

I am noticing this for that code across many sectors. Wrong allegiance codes.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:43, 18 November 2017 (EST)

Yes, this is a known problem. I have fixed the issue in the trade code generator. I just need to find the time to run the generator and upload the results. As I have explained previously the whole process takes about a week of my spare time. I am actively trying to schedule the time to do this but life is interfering with my best laid plans. Tjoneslo (talk) 20:31, 18 November 2017 (EST)

I totally understand. I'd really like to see a solution developed that won't be so demanding of you or others.

* And in the mean time, get procedures for what you do now so someone else can lose that week of update time when you go on vacation or have other obligations.

* I think that is massively unfair to you.

* I had a feeling that it was an identified issue since I've seen it many times before.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:47, 18 November 2017 (EST)

Aldebaran Sector Tz worlds

Hi Thomas, I am noticing a tremendous number of Tz worlds in Aldebaran.

• And many of them are in combinations that seem odd such as [Ic Tz] or [Ga Tz].
• Do you know anything about that?
• Do the Solomani have special technology allowing them to colonize more Tz worlds than their rivals?
• These Tz worlds are from T5SS or Trav Map data, not anything that I have done.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:35, 21 November 2017 (EST)

Thank you for your responses off-forum.

• I have ideas.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 12:12, 24 November 2017 (EST)

Just to follow up for me. The user who updated the Aldeberan, Neworld, Langere and Canopus sectors applied an additional step of generating the orbital positions for the mainworld according to the T5 Core rules p. 413, and noting that worlds in orbits 0 or 1 should be Tz (Twilight Zone) worlds. There may be a plan to update other sectors in the T5 Second Survey with the same data. Tjoneslo (talk) 14:36, 25 November 2017 (EST)

Ok. I think we need to formally reconvene T5SS. I have drafts combining your and Josh'es notes.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 10:51, 26 November 2017 (EST)

Why would Tz worlds have a climate code? Or a trade code that defines a climate like Ga? Such as Ga / Tz?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:05, 11 December 2017 (EST)

The definitions of the trade codes make them compatible. Ga depends upon Size, Atmosphere, and Hydrosphere. Tz depends on the world being in orbit 0 or 1 around a star. The two are not incompatible. The climate codes (Fr, Ho, Co, Tu, Tr) all depend upon orbital location and, like Ga, some planetary settings. None of which are incompatible. Tjoneslo (talk) 22:37, 11 December 2017 (EST)

But a Tz defines as hot on one side and frozen on the other? Pretty hard to get garden-like conditions on such a world and be in orbit 0 or 1?

• Twilight Zone World

* Garden World

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 06:57, 12 December 2017 (EST)

You're over-reading the Ga planetary type code. The Ga code simply states the size, atmosphere, and hydrosphere are in an ideal state for humans. It implies the temperatures are temperate (Tp code) but may not be true. Also, planets are big places. Terra counts as "Ga Tp", but there are both hot and cold inhospitable places here too. Tjoneslo (talk) 07:16, 12 December 2017 (EST)

Climate codes are general overviews of world temperature and weather systems.

• You make excellent points. Thank you for sharing them.
• Traveller makes those assumptions in the background. Worlds are assumed to have multiple biomes, but an overall trend.
• An "ideal climate" for humans is temperate. Tu and Tr would also be close.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:13, 1 January 2018 (EST)

Spinward Marches Areas

Hi Thomas, I am bringing this to your attention:

• Forum:Error in Rhylanor Subsector maps

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 12:12, 24 November 2017 (EST)

Thank you for your earlier help with this.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:19, 10 December 2017 (EST)

Wiki Manual of Style Name

Thomas, the Wiki Manual of Style Name is no longer the correct and current style of formatting.

• Please stop using it and follow the correct style for this wiki.
• If you disagree with this style choice, let's discuss it please

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 11:19, 10 December 2017 (EST)

The naming style I'm using matches the previous, Current, and proposed styles. Since Goods items are not proper nouns, using their names as links in articles with incorrect capitalization is difficult.

Why the change of naming style?

Tjoneslo (talk) 11:45, 10 December 2017 (EST)

What reasons could you envision for this making sense to you?

• Please remember that Anglic is a language of the future, not 21rst century American English.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 22:48, 10 December 2017 (EST)

You're claiming we should be writing the wiki in Anglic, not English? With whatever arbitrarily changed rules for grammar, spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and syntax you decide? Tjoneslo (talk) 07:27, 11 December 2017 (EST)

I am asking you to think of ways in which it would make sense to you.

• It would help if you engage the question, please. Up to you to work with it or not.
• It's not arbitrary, but you haven't picked up on it yet, and you will most bdnefit when you puzzle it out for yourself.
• Many others have and have quite taken to it. Up to you.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:42, 11 December 2017 (EST)

I'm very much getting the feeling from this comment your justification is "because I said so", but are unwilling to be that assertive. And are attempting to make me create a justification for you.

I'm more willing to accept a "because I said so" if you are clear about it. But it won't stop me from asking why. And there are two reasons for doing so. First is because there are generally larger issues I would rather understand than have another, seemingly unrelated, discussion. Second, we need to be able to describe this to others.

Using Anglic as a reason for changes from English is a neat piece of whimsy. But as the justification for the rule changes I object to, strongly.

English has a perfectly acceptable set of rules which match your naming style (to the limit of my understanding), and see no reason to resort German as a justification.

So why are we changing the article naming rules?

Tjoneslo (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2017 (EST)

What are the larger issues that you are concerned with?

* I have been documenting everything I can from "canon," and filling in or creating the rest after consultation with as many of the Inner Circle as possible.

* I also hope to later make named versions of most of the items, to match MWM's developments with equipment cards.

* That is intended to align with the card game as well.

* There are lots of cooks out there and I don't always know all of their reasons either.

* I don't have all of the answers that you seek. I just accept it as it rolls down as long as it doesn't create bigger problems.

* I appreciate your input.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 20:04, 11 December 2017 (EST)

The Mediawiki software designed to work with single language setup (e.g. English vs. German), so forcing it into a mixed mode makes things work not as smoothly as it could. The experience of new users who may have worked with other wiki's being confused by the different manual of style, especially if undocumented. I continue to work on the Traveller wiki equipment guide, so having the entries up to publication quality is very important, including the links and grammar.

I find it difficult to believe the other members of the Inner Circle, including Marc, or any of the licensees working on products, would have a strong opinion on the internal formatting of the wiki without being able to explain it. Or at least willing to have a discussion about it.

So why are we changing the article naming rules?

Tjoneslo (talk) 07:17, 12 December 2017 (EST)

You make great points. Thank you for sharing them.

• The wiki director should have strong opinions about these things so that there will be internal direction, long-term strategy, some semblance of order, and some sort of consistency. This is what lead editors do.
• Your points will be discussed. Your further opinions may be solicited if you are further willing to share them.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 09:09, 1 January 2018 (EST)

Thank you for Edits

Thank you for edits to the Far Traveller and Into the Deep (fanzine) articles.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 19:29, 18 December 2017 (EST)

Publications Template

Thomas, thank you for your comments earlier here: Talk:Maksim-Smelchak/layout templates5.

• Do you know why the previous decision was made not to include a "Sources" template / References section on publications articles?
• I read that the only source was the publication itself in many cases, which doesn't include the people doing the hard work of inputting the article like yourself, myself, or Steve.
• Are there other goods reasons that you can think of? Is or was there a deeper rationale?
• Who made that decision or those decisions? You? D. Corrin? Rancke? Others?
• Again, I really appreciate all that you do and I'd like us to work towards becoming a tighter team, with more cooperation and collaboration.

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 14:11, 24 December 2017 (EST)

New Equipment

I updated all 21 issues of the TD series. There are lots of unfulfilled equipment entries there if you are looking for some.

• I will eventually get to them if you don't beat me to them.
• I have attempted to update them with the features that you prefer such as InfoboxBook2. Is there anything I missed that you would like?

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 16:49, 24 December 2017 (EST)

Two things to keep in mind about the Traveller Digest articles. One, the DGP books are on the Wiki banned list because of copyright issues. We need to have a long discussion with Marc before adding any material from DGP books into the wiki.

Second, almost all of the entries were superseded by other, canon, publications. A great many made it into MT or TNE publications. So a careful review is needed before just adding the entires.

Otherwise the look great, thanks!Tjoneslo (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2018 (EST)

AB-101

Congratulations using AB-101 to remove Sunbane tag entries. Thank you.

• Please don't use AB-101 to make stylistic changes.
• It would be very easy to make AB-102 to counter AB-101 if necessary.
• Wishing you a very happy holiday! Merry Christmas!

- Maksim-Smelchak (talk) 07:56, 25 December 2017 (EST)